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#11
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it wasn't a popup, I had it on file thru FSS. ABQ before the hand off asked me
if I wanted it then or if I wanted it from phoenix, I told him I was ok at that time and that I would get it from phoenix for my decent into williams gateway. Boy thats a mistake I wont make again. when I fly into phoenix VFR / flight following, ABQ has told me (and others) that phoenix will not accept the handoff's from them and I can try calling phoenix myself for class B transition. I flew out of casa grande one night last summer IFR, the guy changed my clearence 5 times in about 10 minutes, the last time he damn near wanted me to fly to yuma before turning toawards blyth VOR. after getting handed off to center, I asked for direct to boulder city and got it. As we were flying along for about 45 minutes my wife saw the city lights off the right side, she goes "is that still phoenix?" I said yup... she then said, are they going to let us go home tonight ? I am going to chalk this up as a learning experience and make sure it does not happen again by getting anything I need from ABQ, but it still does not sit well with me that the controller gave me a traffic alert in IMC. Michael 182 wrote: Jeff: I fly into Phoenix all the time - I've never run into unfriendly controllers. Busy, yes; unfriendly, no. I have been vectored all over the place, but I assume that was for traffic or arrival/departure corridors or some logical reason. Maybe you just ran into a bad apple. By the way, I find it helpful to request a particular arrival when I first contact them. That way usually either I get it, or I get something reasonably close. Regarding getting the pop up IFR, I once had a controller in Denver refuse me a popup. Had to contact FSS to get the clearance. Kind of a pain, but one more item in the log book. Michael "Jeff" wrote in message ... there was room, I was following the clear area between clouds and it was taking me away from where I wnated to go, but I expected to have my clearence any second as usual. from my flights into the phoenix area, and from talking to ABQ center, phoenix is not very GA friendly. they tend to have a problem letting GA planes into their airspace. There airspace is not that busy. Teacherjh wrote: freezing level was 7000-8000 [...] I start my decent, between some clouds Between how much cloud? This could be a serious pilot error, or not a big deal so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds [...] I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in trouble. ... which is why I ask, above. because he was too busy. noone was talking except me. On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies, and do things besides talk on the radio. then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared for the visual. You can request the ILS. But if he's clearing you for a visual, then you can probably complete the visual. Not always though... I got a visual into DXR once, but was in some CB and needed a real approach. The controller asked what I wanted, so I took the Loc 8. and I didnt even tell you about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power. OK controllers, admit it. You have secret radio control over the weather and the engine. Now if you could only control the hobbs meter for me too! Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#12
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he may have been working multiple freqs. Sounds like you are the one with
the problem, not him. Don't blame him for anything - next time file IFR the whole trip. "Jeff" wrote in message ... Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area. I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at 600. freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000 during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing. all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no one was talking except me. then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated" with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000 ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power. that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later. |
#13
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Jeff,
A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable to hear, or he could have been busy coordinating your clearance, or maybe even coordinating departures, so you would not create a problem for them. You just never know without seeing the other side. The thing to remember here is that you were VFR, and asked to pickup your IFR clearance in the air. That by definition gives you less priority in the system compared to other already IFR aircraft. Maybe the lesson here is not to pickup your clearance in a terminal area, but rather do it from the center prior to entering the TRACON's airspace. I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below you. Doug Jeff wrote in message ... Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area. I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at 600. freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000 during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing. all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no one was talking except me. then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated" with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000 ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power. that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later. |
#14
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If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR. Mike MU-2 "Jeff" wrote in message ... Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area. I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at 600. freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000 during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing. all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no one was talking except me. then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated" with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000 ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power. that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later. |
#15
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Jeff wrote:
no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its sunny about 350 days a year there. This is the key to the whole situation. PHX weather is so good, the Tracon folks just don't have to deal with it very often. Jeff's experience is fairly common around this area. Any clouds in the sky and they freak out and can't handle anybody. We often talk about how they ought to rotate people through Socal to learn how to really accommodate IFR GA operations. The flexible, impromptu clearances and tower enroute operations over there are totally unheard of in PHX. Mike |
#16
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those people out at SoCal are very good in my opinion.
I always pick up my clearance when going into the LA basin at the HEC VOR since that's where the ziggy3 arrival begins. Mike Adams wrote: Jeff wrote: no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its sunny about 350 days a year there. This is the key to the whole situation. PHX weather is so good, the Tracon folks just don't have to deal with it very often. Jeff's experience is fairly common around this area. Any clouds in the sky and they freak out and can't handle anybody. We often talk about how they ought to rotate people through Socal to learn how to really accommodate IFR GA operations. The flexible, impromptu clearances and tower enroute operations over there are totally unheard of in PHX. Mike |
#17
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dont blame him for anything?
who was controlling that other plane? I sure was not. there is no reason to have to file IFR the entire trip. Richard Hertz wrote: he may have been working multiple freqs. Sounds like you are the one with the problem, not him. Don't blame him for anything - next time file IFR the whole trip. "Jeff" wrote in message ... Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area. I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at 600. freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000 during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing. all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no one was talking except me. then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated" with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000 ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power. that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later. |
#18
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ya your right, thats why I received the traffic alert, the air was so saturated with traffic
that I was just in the way of that other plane. Doug Rinks wrote: Jeff, I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below you. Doug Jeff wrote in message ... Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area. I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at 600. freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000 during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing. all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no one was talking except me. then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated" with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000 ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power. that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later. |
#19
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and how was I not prepared ?
Mike Rapoport wrote: If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business filing, requesting or flying IFR. Mike MU-2 "Jeff" wrote in message ... Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area. I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at 600. freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000 during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing. all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no one was talking except me. then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated" with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to 6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000 ...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power. that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later. |
#20
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Jeff wrote:
ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me. no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its sunny about 350 days a year there. That is likely part of the problem. A controller who only handles IFR traffic in IMC 5 days a year will be about as proficient as a pilot who only encounters IMC 5 days a year in his IFR flying. Matt |
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