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FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 7th 03, 10:01 PM
gross_arrow
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FryGuy wrote in message . 41...
I have a couple of questions that are unclear to me regarding being a
safety pilot and operating high performance and/or complex aircraft. I've
tried looking these up in the 2003 FAR but I wasn't able to find a good
answer to my questions. If you could give me the reference in the FAR if
there is one I would appreciate it. Here they a

1) I have a friend who needs to go practice some IFR approaches to stay
current. I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is not a
problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log the time
PIC. Is this correct?

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance aircraft? I
thought that an endorsement was required for planes with retractable gear
and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a greater than 200
horsepower engine. In my log book I see an endorsement line for the HP
(there isn't a FAR reference though) but not for the complex. I looked up
"complex" in the FAR and could not find anything regarding this.

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an endorsment
for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety pilot in this
plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for complex/HP? 91.109.b.2
says the safety pilot just needs to be a private pilot with the appropriate
category and class ratings.

Thanks for the information!

Jeff Frey




the reg you are looking for is 61.31, paragraphs (e) and (f). basically,
what jose said is correct -- you may serve as safety pilot without the
endorsements required by 61.31, but you may not act as pic, and therefore
cannot log the time as pic. you can, however, log the time as sic. once
you get the endorsement(s) you can log pic if you act as pic, which must
be by prior arrangement with the flying pilot. [anytime two pilots are
in an aircraft, it is a good idea to settle who is pic prior to the
flight. it is also a good idea to discuss which duties each will perform.]

hth,

g_a
Ads
  #12  
Old August 7th 03, 10:12 PM
Roger Halstead
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On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:06:25 GMT, "John T" wrote:

"FryGuy" wrote in message
. 41

1) I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is
not a problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log
the time PIC. Is this correct?


Yes, you may log the time actually spent as a safety pilot as PIC.

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance
aircraft?


Separate endorsements are needed for high performance and complex airplanes.

14 CFR 61.31
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except
as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot
in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing
gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a
seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller)...
(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may
act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an
engine of more than 200 horsepower)...

3) Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety pilot just needs to be a
private pilot with the appropriate category and class ratings.


You've answered your own question. The safety pilot needs to be rated
in the category and class of the aircraft.


IE Single engine land.

OTOH, I fly high performance/complex/retract. Now days I only care
that the safety pilot know what they are doing. When I was a
beginning student, I wanted some on in the right seat who could take
over if I screwed up. I want a pair of eyes that are busy looking
outside and at least somewhat familiar with the system.

Even now, although I say I only want a set of eyes and ears, the first
time someone serves as safety pilot with me, we go out and spend an
hour doing maneuvers so they can get familiar with the airplane and
its characteristics and that includes stalls and emergency procedures.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
  #14  
Old August 7th 03, 11:41 PM
Robert Moore
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Andrew Koenig wrote

Unless you hold an instructor or ATP certificate, you can only
log PIC time for the period during which you are the sole
manipulator of the controls.


Robert Not true... if more than one pilot is required (pilot
and safety Robert pilot) either one may be the PIC and log PIC.

Hmmm... other posters differ from you on that.


In what respect do they differ? If it is my airplane and I am
the pilot flying with a hood on, I tell the safety pilot that I
am the PIC and I log PIC on two accounts. First I am the sole
manipulator of the controls and second because I AM the PIC. He
logs SIC. Second case, I am the pilot flying and I tell the
safety pilot that he is the PIC for the flight. I log PIC since
I am the sole manipulator of the controls AND he logs PIC because
he really is the PIC. See my original statement.

I think you're right -- you need separate endorsements for
each kind of high-performance airplane.


Robert Not true, an endorsement in a Cessna 210 is good for a
Bonanza.

That's because a Cessna 210 is both kinds at once, so if you're
endorsed for a 210, you effectively have both endorsements.

On the other hand, if you're endorsed for a Cessna 177RG, I
don't think that endorsement is valid for a 182.


You are confusing "High Performance" and "Complex". The C-182 is
both complex and high performance. The C-177RG is only complex.
A "complex" endorsement is good for all complex airplanes, a "high
performance" endorsement is good for all types of high performance
airplanes.

Bob Moore
ATP CFII
  #15  
Old August 7th 03, 11:55 PM
journeyman
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On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:41:21 GMT, Robert Moore wrote:

You are confusing "High Performance" and "Complex". The C-182 is
both complex and high performance. The C-177RG is only complex.


Surely you mean the C-182RG is both complex & high perf. The C-182 is
only "high performance". The C-177RG is, of course, "complex" but not
"high performance".

A "complex" endorsement is good for all complex airplanes, a "high
performance" endorsement is good for all types of high performance
airplanes.


True.


Morris
  #16  
Old August 8th 03, 12:25 AM
Robert Moore
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(journeyman) wrote

Surely you mean the C-182RG is both complex & high perf. The
C-182 is only "high performance". The C-177RG is, of course,
"complex" but not "high performance".


Yep! A slip of the fingers. :-)

Bob Moore
  #17  
Old August 8th 03, 12:43 AM
JerryK
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You can act as safety pilot without having the high performance or complex
endorsements. All you need is to have at least a PPC and be rated in the
a/c. (91.109(b)(1)).


Here is a wrinkle what if you are rated in category and class, but not
current? Ex. you have not landed in class and cat lately. Can you still
act as safetly pilot?


  #18  
Old August 8th 03, 01:33 AM
FryGuy
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Ok, I think I understand now and I'm going to try and summarize what I've
gathered from reading the other posts in this thread. Thanks for
everyone who answered me even though I know this dead horse has been
beaten in the past. Please let me know if I'm wrong.

1) I have a friend who needs to go practice some IFR approaches to
stay current. I am a private pilot ASEL. I'm pretty sure that it is
not a problem with me being his safety pilot but he told me I can log
the time PIC. Is this correct?


Yes, the pilot flying in simulated instrument conditions will log PIC
because he is the sole manipulator of the controls and I will log PIC
because prior to the flight I was designated as the PIC and the safety
pilot. I can only log PIC if I'm properly rated for the aircraft that we
are flying.

2) What are the requirements for complex and high performance
aircraft? I thought that an endorsement was required for planes with
retractable gear and a adjustable prop and another for planes with a
greater than 200 horsepower engine. In my log book I see an
endorsement line for the HP (there isn't a FAR reference though) but
not for the complex. I looked up "complex" in the FAR and could not
find anything regarding this.


61.31(e) and (f). Thanks for helping me find this. I think the Index
should point to these for "Complex" and "High Performance". I have the
ASA 2003 FAR/AIM and couldn't find it right off the bat.

3) Ok, now the combination of the two. Lets say I do need an
endorsment for the complex/HP aircraft. Can I log time as the safety
pilot in this plane if I haven't yet gotten the endorsment for
complex/HP? 91.109.b.2 says the safety pilot just needs to be a
private pilot with the appropriate category and class ratings.


This is kind of answered in the first question but to clear it up I can
log the time as safety pilot as long as I meet the category and class
requirements. To log PIC in a complex or high perfomance aircraft I must
be properly rated. Otherwise I would be considered SIC.
  #19  
Old August 8th 03, 02:03 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:43:09 -0700, "JerryK"
wrote:

Here is a wrinkle what if you are rated in category and class, but not
current? Ex. you have not landed in class and cat lately. Can you still
act as safetly pilot?


Of course you can. There is no requirement to be current. 91.109 says
"rated". In addition 61.55(d) specifically exempts safety pilots from the
requirements of 61.55.

You do need a current medical, though.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #20  
Old August 8th 03, 02:10 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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On Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:33:21 GMT, FryGuy wrote:

This is kind of answered in the first question but to clear it up I can
log the time as safety pilot as long as I meet the category and class
requirements. To log PIC in a complex or high perfomance aircraft I must
be properly rated. Otherwise I would be considered SIC.


I think you understand it but the use of "rated" in this context is
confusing the issue, since that term is used in 91.109 in a different way
than you appear to be using it.

Rated in this context just refers to category and class (i.e. aircraft,
single-engine land).

To log PIC as a safety pilot, in addition to being "rated", you must also
be current, have the proper endorsements and so forth. In addition, if the
pilot flying is also qualified to act as PIC, you must have made an
agreement with him that YOU would be the PIC. According to FAA legal
opinion, this agreement should be made prior to the flight.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
 




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