Q on 250nm IR training X/C flight

On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote:

FAR 61.65 details this

(A) A distance of at least 250nm along airways or ATC directed
routing;

I was told to measure the map distance between the airports, but
I'm not sure this is correct. I was also told no to count the distance
flown in, for example, a procedure turn, etc.

For example, I was told that if during the leg that was to be at
least 100NM, I had to divert to a different airport (due to weather)
and the alternate was not 100NM from the start of that leg, then I
do not meet the 100nm minimum.

I'm sure others will interpret this differently, and I would be
interested in seeing documentation to support that position.


(B) An instrument approach at each airport;

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation
systems.

What happens if one has done the following

(1) A 600nm airways flight with an IFR departure and an RV ILS, ATC
directed.

OK. One ILS approach...


(2) A return (600nm) flight, as above, followed by a circling approach
onto the opposite runway.

A 'circling approach' is not an IFR approach. The Instrument Approach
gets you to the airport area, where you can land straight-in, circle
to land, execute a missed approach, etc.

Also, I'm a little confused by 'opposite runway'. Is this the same
airport at which you executed the ILS approach? Because I think it
has to be three separate airports.


Unfortunately the above is just one type of instrument approach. Upon
return it was planned to do the other two kinds of instrument
approaches at a nearby airport but bad weather prevented flying there.

Is the above flying wasted for the 250nm flight requirement, or can
one come back a week or two later and complete the other two
approaches?

I guess that will be up to your D.E. I think the flight is intended
to be flown at one time, but others have argued that an overnight
stop is not unreasonable. However, if you delay a week, how can you
say this is one flight?

You definitely want to make sure you have your ducks in a row before
making this flight (as it's long and expensive). Keep in mind too that
you need to consider the weather, and diversion to alternate airports
and how that would affect your total trip mileage if that should happen.


My options for the other two are

NDB/DME
NDB only

Is that any good?

The way I interpret the regs, you need to fly to three different
airports (home, away #1, and away #2) and use a different IAP 'type'
at each airport. The distance between two airports (along one leg)
must be at least 100NM.

If you have VOR with glide slope, then you can fly an ILS at one
airport, a Localizer at another airport, and a VOR approach at
the third (assuming the approaches at the airports will support
this).

I'm not sure if "NDB" and "NDB/DME" would be considered different
approach types for the purposes of this flight, but I would think
they would be.



Also 61.65 does not say the flight has to be under the hood. It just
says "under IFR". Is that correct?

If you're in IMC, you don't need to wear the hood. If you're not
in IMC, you need to simulate it through the use of a view-limiting
device, like a hood.




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:

On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote:

FAR 61.65 details this

(A) A distance of at least 250nm along airways or ATC directed
routing;


I was told to measure the map distance between the airports, but
I'm not sure this is correct. I was also told no to count the distance
flown in, for example, a procedure turn, etc.

For example, I was told that if during the leg that was to be at
least 100NM, I had to divert to a different airport (due to weather)
and the alternate was not 100NM from the start of that leg, then I
do not meet the 100nm minimum.


There is no requirement for a leg of at least 100NM. Just that the
total of all the legs is 250NM. This is the requirement in its entireity:

(iii) For an instrument -- airplane rating, instrument training on
cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at
least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under
IFR, and consists of --

(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or
ATC-directed routing;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems;

On 8/15/2005 12:56, xyzzy wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:

On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote:

FAR 61.65 details this

(A) A distance of at least 250nm along airways or ATC directed
routing;


I was told to measure the map distance between the airports, but
I'm not sure this is correct. I was also told no to count the distance
flown in, for example, a procedure turn, etc.

For example, I was told that if during the leg that was to be at
least 100NM, I had to divert to a different airport (due to weather)
and the alternate was not 100NM from the start of that leg, then I
do not meet the 100nm minimum.


There is no requirement for a leg of at least 100NM. Just that the
total of all the legs is 250NM. This is the requirement in its entireity:

Sorry, I'm using the Part 141 course which does require the 100NM leg,
and I thought the Part 61 course required this also; I guess not...


(iii) For an instrument -- airplane rating, instrument training on
cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at
least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under
IFR, and consists of --

(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or
ATC-directed routing;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems;




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

There's no reason you can't do two approaches of different types at one
airport and a different type back home. I did an ILS, then went missed
and came around for a VOR, then a LOC at the end of the return leg.


Mark Hansen wrote:
On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote:



The way I interpret the regs, you need to fly to three different
airports (home, away #1, and away #2) and use a different IAP 'type'
at each airport. The distance between two airports (along one leg)
must be at least 100NM.

On 8/15/2005 13:43, Yossarian wrote:

There's no reason you can't do two approaches of different types at one
airport and a different type back home. I did an ILS, then went missed
and came around for a VOR, then a LOC at the end of the return leg.

That's true, but you have to go to three different airports anyway.
Why not just do a different approach at each?

However, my wording was incorrect. I said that you had to fly a
different approach at each airport, and that's not a requirement;
only that you have three airports, and (at least) three different
IAPs.



Mark Hansen wrote:
On 8/15/2005 11:21, Peter wrote:



The way I interpret the regs, you need to fly to three different
airports (home, away #1, and away #2) and use a different IAP 'type'
at each airport. The distance between two airports (along one leg)
must be at least 100NM.




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

My point is that nowhere does it say you have to go to 3 airports for
the long x-c. Only that you do 3 different types of approaches.

Mark Hansen wrote:
On 8/15/2005 13:43, Yossarian wrote:

There's no reason you can't do two approaches of different types at one
airport and a different type back home. I did an ILS, then went missed
and came around for a VOR, then a LOC at the end of the return leg.

That's true, but you have to go to three different airports anyway.
Why not just do a different approach at each?

However, my wording was incorrect. I said that you had to fly a
different approach at each airport, and that's not a requirement;
only that you have three airports, and (at least) three different
IAPs.

On 8/15/2005 15:45, Yossarian wrote:

My point is that nowhere does it say you have to go to 3 airports for
the long x-c. Only that you do 3 different types of approaches.

You know, I would have sworn I read 'three separate airports', but looking
over it now, it's just not there. I guess I've been listening to my CFII
too much and not reading enough for myself.

Time to hit the FARs...

Thanks for clarifying that.


Mark Hansen wrote:
On 8/15/2005 13:43, Yossarian wrote:

There's no reason you can't do two approaches of different types at one
airport and a different type back home. I did an ILS, then went missed
and came around for a VOR, then a LOC at the end of the return leg.

That's true, but you have to go to three different airports anyway.
Why not just do a different approach at each?

However, my wording was incorrect. I said that you had to fly a
different approach at each airport, and that's not a requirement;
only that you have three airports, and (at least) three different
IAPs.




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

Peter wrote:

xyzzy wrote


(iii) For an instrument -- airplane rating, instrument training on
cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at
least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under
IFR, and consists of --

(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or
ATC-directed routing;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems;


If "flight" means the strict thing (taking off and landing) then how
one can do three different approaches, other than do the first two as
missed approaches?

Well, I think if you look up the "strict definition" of a "cross-country
flight" from the FARs you'll see that multiple stops along the way are
allowed. See FAR 61.1(b)(3)

Peter wrote:
xyzzy wrote

If "flight" means the strict thing (taking off and landing) then how
one can do three different approaches, other than do the first two as
missed approaches?

There is no "strict thing" definition of flight in the FARs. The FAA is
quite lenient in what constitutes a flight, it has to have a start point
and a destination, but it can have any number of stops of whatever
duration you want in the strict definition...if they want non-stop or
a certain leg length, they explicitly say so.