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#12
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On 22 Aug 2003 17:52:46 GMT, (Davdirect) wrote:
The police dept here had people flying for 2 years with only a private. I still think it would be wiser to have professional pilots to worry about the piloting and let the police worry about the policing. When the pilot starts being too much of a cop and not enough of a pilot is when things will turn bad. Here's an article praising the cops for finally getting their commercial tickets: http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll...EWS16/10804009 1/-1/ARCHIVES30 Dave (20hr student pilot) One of the topics taught at airborne law enforcement seminars is cockpit management. There is a strict division of duties between the flight officer & the pilot. The pilots sole mission is the safe operation of the aircraft. |
#13
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Then why require the law enforcement training? Wouldn't it be wiser to have an
experienced pilot than to have an experienced cop who has minimal hours? Am I not getting something? |
#14
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Davdirect wrote:
Then why require the law enforcement training? Wouldn't it be wiser to have an experienced pilot than to have an experienced cop who has minimal hours? Yes that would be a good presumption. However the politics of the situation come into play. If you were a police officer in any city, what would your attitude be if you knew that you could never be the chief of police, a dog handler, a supervisor, a trainer, the head of the union, a dispatcher, or even a helicopter pilot, in your own police department. Some years ago in British Columbia ( Canada ) a fire department hired a new chief from outside the department. In this case I do believe he was the fire marshall for the Province and his credentials were impeccible and beyod reproach. But because he wasn't hired from within the department the firemen and firewomen would not and did not support him for many, many, many, many years. Their attitude was.... why should we work our ass off for ten fifteen years if - when - the job as chief comes up we won't even be considered. The chief got death threats, vandalism, his kids suffered, etc. They made his life miserable. Someone more familier with that situation can jump in at any time and correct me on the details. I'm trying not to imbelish the story. If you spent five years as a police officer for example and wanted to be a dog handler and your police department would only hire people who were interested IN BECOMING POLICE OFFICERS and who already had extensive outside training and experience handling dogs, where would that leave you. Why you might have to quite the department, obtain extensive training with dogs on your own, at your own expense, and then reapply and hoped you got hired back in. This actually happened with a police officer I knew some years ago. He wanted to be a police helicopter pilot and with some years experience as a police officer he had to quite the force, take his helicopter training at his own expense, work in the industry for a couple of years to get some hours under his belt and then reapply. He was lucky..... They hired him back on as a helicopter pilot. |
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Davdirect wrote:
Then why require the law enforcement training? Wouldn't it be wiser to have an experienced pilot than to have an experienced cop who has minimal hours? If you were a police department what would you rather have....... An experienced police officer who knew the lay of the land, had worked the streets, understood exactly what was going on, and had been trained to fly a helicopter as a police officer pilot. OR...... An experienced helicopter pilot who had never made an arrest, worked the streets, or knew what the boys and girls actually went through down there on the ground...... but was now a sworn in police officer with a gun at his hip. What experience is more important to the police department. If in their wisdom they were to hire YOU off the street and spend tens of thousands of dollars and many hundreds of hours training YOU to be a police officer and at the end actually give you a gun with all the responsibility that it implies. then why wouldn't they take an experienced police officer and spend tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to train them to fly a helicopter with all the responsibility that it implies. |
#16
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On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:23:16 GMT, Other side of the COIN
wrote: Davdirect wrote: Then why require the law enforcement training? Wouldn't it be wiser to have an experienced pilot than to have an experienced cop who has minimal hours? If you were a police department what would you rather have....... An experienced police officer who knew the lay of the land, had worked the streets, understood exactly what was going on, and had been trained to fly a helicopter as a police officer pilot. OR...... An experienced helicopter pilot who had never made an arrest, worked the streets, or knew what the boys and girls actually went through down there on the ground...... but was now a sworn in police officer with a gun at his hip. What experience is more important to the police department. If in their wisdom they were to hire YOU off the street and spend tens of thousands of dollars and many hundreds of hours training YOU to be a police officer and at the end actually give you a gun with all the responsibility that it implies. then why wouldn't they take an experienced police officer and spend tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to train them to fly a helicopter with all the responsibility that it implies. I have found I can train a person to be a good safe pilot in much less time I than I can teach them to be a police officer. If a person goes to the trouble to go through the police training, work the streets & go through the BS you have to go through to get in an air unit, it is far less likely thy will leave a short time later. In law enforcement I want both members of my flight crew to be cops. That "low time pilot" flying PIC usually has a high time pilot riding with him as the other crewmember for some time. He doesn't stay a low time pilot for long. If you can land a gig as a police pilot, it's a great job, thus the petty professional jealousy on the issue of civilian vs. cops for pilots. My department started its air unit in the 20's The helicopters showed up in 1967. Since then we have only suffered 1 crash. The cause was pilot error. The pilot had 20,000+ hours of military & civillian time. The "low time" guys have never put a scratch on the ships. |
#17
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Illinois State Police used to have a program called "Air-One". It was 2
Enstrom's roaming the state that were basically leased back to indiviadual towns for a night or a week at a time. When not roaming a particular town, it just roamed around the sky's looking for trouble. The occupants of the aircraft were, one State Trooper and a civilian pilot. If there was an individual town involved, that person would be flying the left seat instead of the trooper. This was a great program. Nabbed a lot of bad guys....then it was nixed by the state. I don't think anyone in Illinois uses helicopters anymore. |
#18
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One side of the COIN wrote in message ...
Davdirect wrote: Then why require the law enforcement training? Wouldn't it be wiser to have an experienced pilot than to have an experienced cop who has minimal hours? Yes that would be a good presumption. However the politics of the situation come into play. If you were a police officer in any city, what would your attitude be if you knew that you could never be the chief of police, a dog handler, a supervisor, a trainer, the head of the union, a dispatcher, or even a helicopter pilot, in your own police department. Some years ago in British Columbia ( Canada ) a fire department hired a new chief from outside the department. In this case I do believe he was the fire marshall for the Province and his credentials were impeccible and beyod reproach. But because he wasn't hired from within the department the firemen and firewomen would not and did not support him for many, many, many, many years. Their attitude was.... why should we work our ass off for ten fifteen years if - when - the job as chief comes up we won't even be considered. The chief got death threats, vandalism, his kids suffered, etc. They made his life miserable. Someone more familier with that situation can jump in at any time and correct me on the details. I'm trying not to imbelish the story. If you spent five years as a police officer for example and wanted to be a dog handler and your police department would only hire people who were interested IN BECOMING POLICE OFFICERS and who already had extensive outside training and experience handling dogs, where would that leave you. Why you might have to quite the department, obtain extensive training with dogs on your own, at your own expense, and then reapply and hoped you got hired back in. This actually happened with a police officer I knew some years ago. He wanted to be a police helicopter pilot and with some years experience as a police officer he had to quite the force, take his helicopter training at his own expense, work in the industry for a couple of years to get some hours under his belt and then reapply. He was lucky..... They hired him back on as a helicopter pilot. I was on a Sheriff's Department and no one gave a crap about what experience you had as to flying helis. It was all politics. There were heli-rated deputies that couldn't get the time of day from the air unit. They'd take non-pilots that kissed enough ass or whose buddies were already there and spend a fortune taking them from zero time to pilot at monstrous expense, totally ignoring the guys that already had heli ratings. One clown they pushed up the ladder was found not to have sufficient training after he rolled a heli and killed his partner. There were a few new openings in the air unit after that one, especially for supervisors. KJSDCAUSA |
#19
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#20
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"One side of the COIN" wrote in message ... Davdirect wrote: Then why require the law enforcement training? Wouldn't it be wiser to have an experienced pilot than to have an experienced cop who has minimal hours? Yes that would be a good presumption. However the politics of the situation come into play. If you were a police officer in any city, what would your attitude be if you knew that you could never be the chief of police, a dog handler, a supervisor, a trainer, the head of the union, a dispatcher, or even a helicopter pilot, in your own police department. Hiring experienced pilots off the street should not necessarily preclude anyone from within the department from becoming pilots themselves and moving into the aviation unit. Of those jobs listed (dog handler, dispatcher, etc), how many require the level of training of a pilot? It's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. On the issue of the responsibility of carrying a gun vs flying an aircraft: I agree, both come with a lot of responsibility. However, the tone of some of the posts here indicate that some consider it more important for a police pilot to have experience carrying a gun than actually flying an aircraft. A very myopic and dangerous view. I would ask the question, how many times do the pilots in any given police air unit find themselves in need of their weapon? For instance, I often see road signs stating "Speed Limit Enforced By Aircraft", however, I have yet to see any police aircraft pull someone over, land, shut down, police officer pilot get out, and write a ticket. I can see possible scenarios where a pilot might land and let the observer get out and make/assist with an arrest. Flying with two pilots (vice a pilot and an observer) would allow for a less experienced pilot to learn from those with more experience, and they may find themselves in a situation where one might need a gun. However, for those flying single pilot with an observer, a more experienced pilot is going to make for a safer operation. Put yourself in an observer's shoes, would you rather fly with pilot with maybe 250-300 hours who just got their commerical rating, or a pilot with 2000 hours? Ask the taxpayers who they want flying their aircraft. "One side of the COIN" Later went on to say: If you were a police department what would you rather have....... An experienced police officer who knew the lay of the land, had worked the streets, understood exactly what was going on, and had been trained to fly a helicopter as a police officer pilot. OR...... An experienced helicopter pilot who had never made an arrest, worked the streets, or knew what the boys and girls actually went through down there on the ground...... but was now a sworn in police officer with a gun at his hip. What experience is more important to the police department. As has been stated in this thread, politics, more than anything, drives the decision about who becomes a police pilot. Unfortunately, politics and policies are often controlled by people with little to no knowledge of aviation. One law enforcement agency that hires people to be pilots is the US Customs Service. Yes, you attend their academy (16 weeks, I think), become a sworn officer, and carry a gun. Then you go straight to an aviation unit. There is nothing that states that a Customs officer could not become a pilot, if they meet the flight time minimums. I think it could be argued effectively that an experienced pilot, especially one with a military background (no slight intended toward civilian pilots), could learn a patrolman's job faster than a patrolman could become a pilot's. Some in this thread may disagree, but I'll stand by my statement. |
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