What gliders do you hate?

Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2014 17:58:13 -0800, Peter Smith wrote:

I hate racism, sexism, etc., in short, I hate hate. But gliders? What's
to hate. It's an awful word. Save the word for really awful things.
There are no hateful gliders.

I understand where you're coming from, but some gliders are nicer that
others. For instance, I'll take an SZD Junior any time if the other
choices are a G.102 Astir, ASK-23 or PW-5. I've flown all four and for my
money the Junior is more responsive and generally nicer to fly than any
of the others.



I guess I've flown mostly loveable gliders and own a couple of the finest
flying machines that out there (Ka6 and Std Libelle). If I had to pick my
least favorite I'd have to pick on the hapless 2-33. Not really a bad plane
just not as fine as the rest if you can stay out of the back ;-)

Pete

On Thu, 01 Jan 2015 03:41:27 +0000, Peter von Tresckow wrote:

Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2014 17:58:13 -0800, Peter Smith wrote:

I hate racism, sexism, etc., in short, I hate hate. But gliders?
What's to hate. It's an awful word. Save the word for really awful
things. There are no hateful gliders.

I understand where you're coming from, but some gliders are nicer that
others. For instance, I'll take an SZD Junior any time if the other
choices are a G.102 Astir, ASK-23 or PW-5. I've flown all four and for
my money the Junior is more responsive and generally nicer to fly than
any of the others.



I guess I've flown mostly loveable gliders and own a couple of the
finest flying machines that out there (Ka6 and Std Libelle). If I had to
pick my least favorite I'd have to pick on the hapless 2-33. Not really
a bad plane just not as fine as the rest if you can stay out of the back
;-)

I've not flown a Ka-6 (yet), but I own a Std Libelle and love it to bits.

I have had just one flight in a 2-33. It reminded me, from a performance
and handling POV, of a Slingsby T-21 Sedburg, but I thought the front
seat ergonomics were abominable: easily the worst of anything I've flown.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Is hating hate along the same lines as "never say never"?

Anything that flies is OK with me. Aircraft are like lovers. Some are
great, some are terrific, and some are wonderful...


On 12/31/2014 6:58 PM, Peter Smith wrote:
On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 12:35:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:
In the spirit of fun, what gliders (makes or specific ones) do you hate, distrust, or are just plain tired of. Have you given so many rides in one model that you never want to see it again? Is there a plane that, despite treating it right, just seemed to want to hurt you? Or is there one out there that is just so ugly that you can't stand it?

My pleas won't work, but let's keep it fun. .... I'll save my example for later in the discussion but I'll give you a hint; it's Polish made.

Terry (XN) in a ASW-27 (which I love)
I hate racism, sexism, etc., in short, I hate hate. But gliders? What's to hate. It's an awful word. Save the word for really awful things. There are no hateful gliders.

--
Dan Marotta

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 9:14:11 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
Is hating hate along the same lines as "never say never"?



Anything that flies is OK with me.* Aircraft are like lovers.* Some
are great, some are terrific, and some are wonderful...






On 12/31/2014 6:58 PM, Peter Smith
wrote:



On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 12:35:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:


In the spirit of fun, what gliders (makes or specific ones) do you hate, distrust, or are just plain tired of. Have you given so many rides in one model that you never want to see it again? Is there a plane that, despite treating it right, just seemed to want to hurt you? Or is there one out there that is just so ugly that you can't stand it?

My pleas won't work, but let's keep it fun. .... I'll save my example for later in the discussion but I'll give you a hint; it's Polish made.

Terry (XN) in a ASW-27 (which I love)


I hate racism, sexism, etc., in short, I hate hate. But gliders? What's to hate. It's an awful word. Save the word for really awful things. There are no hateful gliders.





--

Dan Marotta

it pains me to see the words "sailplane" and "hate" in the same sentence............can't we just get along?

GK

Hate? None so far, thank goodness! But dislike? Schweizer 2-33 is the obvious answer (for US and Canadian pilots, at least) due to it's atrocious ergonomics, lethargic control response, and general ugliness. But I don't so much dislike it (first glider solo in one, have a lot of time in it giving rides, and still occasionally fly our club's example, just to remind myself how much nicer the other gliders are) as think that its time has past and that it was a poor effort by Schweizer, when you think that the classic Blanik L-13 and Schleicher K-7/13s are contemporaries...

But picking on the 2-33 is too easy, so here are two mo

Schweizer 1-34. Looks like it should be a lot of fun, but it's really pretty pedestrian to fly, with almost the worst ailerons in any Std Class glider. I much prefer the older 1-23 - that's a fun little glider!

Peterson J-4 Javelin. Spoilers for roll control - or lack of it. Identical spoilers for glidepath control, or lack of it. Ugly as sin (but a big comfortable cockpit). A truly imaginative attempt at an inexpensive glider, but the cost cutting really shows. I flew one of the first ones built, and was unimpressed - and the following day another demo flight in it ended in a pattern stall-spin fatal crash - due I believe directly to the weak ailerons and spoilers, combined with a too high pattern, leading to an attempted low 360...

That being said, if any of these were all I had to fly and the day looked good, I wouldn't hesitate to jump in any of them and go fly!

Kirk
66

At 18:26 01 January 2015, kirk.stant wrote:
Hate? None so far, thank goodness! But dislike? Schweizer 2-
33 is the
obv=
ious answer (for US and Canadian pilots, at least) due to it's
atrocious
er=
gonomics, lethargic control response, and general ugliness. But
I don't so
=
much dislike it (first glider solo in one, have a lot of time in it
giving
=
rides, and still occasionally fly our club's example, just to
remind
myself=
how much nicer the other gliders are) as think that its time
has past and
=
that it was a poor effort by Schweizer, when you think that the
classic
Bla=
nik L-13 and Schleicher K-7/13s are contemporaries...

But picking on the 2-33 is too easy, so here are two mo

Schweizer 1-34. Looks like it should be a lot of fun, but it's
really
pret=
ty pedestrian to fly, with almost the worst ailerons in any Std
Class
glide=
r. I much prefer the older 1-23 - that's a fun little glider!

Peterson J-4 Javelin. Spoilers for roll control - or lack of it.
Identical=
spoilers for glidepath control, or lack of it. Ugly as sin (but a
big
comf=
ortable cockpit). A truly imaginative attempt at an inexpensive
glider,
bu=
t the cost cutting really shows. I flew one of the first ones
built, and
w=
as unimpressed - and the following day another demo flight in
it ended in
a=
pattern stall-spin fatal crash - due I believe directly to the
weak
ailero=
ns and spoilers, combined with a too high pattern, leading to
an attempted
=
low 360...

That being said, if any of these were all I had to fly and the
day looked
g=
ood, I wouldn't hesitate to jump in any of them and go fly!

Kirk
66

If Gliders are like Beer, it might go like this: After another
cracking soaring day, during the 1969 Nationals at Marfa, the
Glasflugel test pilot and I stood together on the old airbase
ramp, drinking our cans of Coors beer. The lousy capture of
each other's language led mostly to staring at the waning cu's of
the deep blue, West Texas sky. Yet savoring the watery taste of
these versions of German staple, I had to ask...but carefully:
"Herr Muller...How Do You Like Coors Beer?" He responded with
slow and diplomatic word: "Any Beer Is Better Than No Beer."
Smiling, we starred at the sky some more.
Rob RB

At 19:33 01 January 2015, Robert Buck wrote:
At 18:26 01 January 2015, kirk.stant wrote:
Hate? None so far, thank goodness! But dislike? Schweizer 2-
33 is the
obv=
ious answer (for US and Canadian pilots, at least) due to it's
atrocious
er=
gonomics, lethargic control response, and general ugliness. But
I don't so
=
much dislike it (first glider solo in one, have a lot of time in it
giving
=
rides, and still occasionally fly our club's example, just to
remind
myself=
how much nicer the other gliders are) as think that its time
has past and
=
that it was a poor effort by Schweizer, when you think that the
classic
Bla=
nik L-13 and Schleicher K-7/13s are contemporaries...

But picking on the 2-33 is too easy, so here are two mo

Schweizer 1-34. Looks like it should be a lot of fun, but it's
really
pret=
ty pedestrian to fly, with almost the worst ailerons in any Std
Class
glide=
r. I much prefer the older 1-23 - that's a fun little glider!

Peterson J-4 Javelin. Spoilers for roll control - or lack of it.
Identical=
spoilers for glidepath control, or lack of it. Ugly as sin (but a
big
comf=
ortable cockpit). A truly imaginative attempt at an inexpensive
glider,
bu=
t the cost cutting really shows. I flew one of the first ones
built, and
w=
as unimpressed - and the following day another demo flight in
it ended in
a=
pattern stall-spin fatal crash - due I believe directly to the
weak
ailero=
ns and spoilers, combined with a too high pattern, leading to
an attempted
=
low 360...

That being said, if any of these were all I had to fly and the
day looked
g=
ood, I wouldn't hesitate to jump in any of them and go fly!

Kirk
66

If Gliders are like Beer, it might go like this: After another
cracking soaring day, during the 1969 Nationals at Marfa, the
Glasflugel test pilot and I stood together on the old airbase
ramp, drinking our cans of Coors beer. The lousy capture of
each other's language led mostly to staring at the waning cu's of
the deep blue, West Texas sky. Yet savoring the watery taste of
these versions of German staple, I had to ask...but carefully:
"Herr Muller...How Do You Like Coors Beer?" He responded with
slow and diplomatic word: "Any Beer Is Better Than No Beer."
Smiling, we starred at the sky some more.
Rob RB

I misguidedly posted under a changed header so here goes again.

Nobody picked the 2-22 ; maybe you are all too young, though there a re a
few still around. Goerge Moffatt
commented in Soaring mag that the 2-33 was a big improvement over the
2-22, which gives gredence to my
noting it as the worst.

Among the 50 plus types I have flown, the worst are the 2-22 , the
Pratt-Read and probably the Tutor in which
I soloed plus the Kirby Kite II; hard to remember from 55 years ago.
Designs have improved so much that it is hard to rate the most pleasant
types, but the ASW 20, the Kestrel 19, the
Nimbus 2C and the PIk s D and E all are responsive to fly and have
satisfying performance.
I have not flown a really modern glider but the Nimbus 3T is great when
you just want to go straight.

A greybeard's recollections.

John F

Again... I intended this to be in this spirit of fun. "Hate" is used loose and light here. Like guys sitting around drinking and saying "You know what I hate? Being rejected by the cute waitress... and this watery beer. I think I'll have another!"

(So, read everything below in a playful voice. It's the new year. It's cold.. I'm dreaming of flying... and looking for laughs.)

Trying again, what gliders do you dislike, but not so much that you use a forbidden word as "hate" to describe?

Me.... The plane I dislike most is hard to sit in, has a special trailer because the designer couldn't stand to stick to convention, ground loops like it was made for it, has a fuselage you can twist by hand, and straight-out-of-the-factory gives the pilot a 30% chance of gear collapse on every landing.

Using hate to describe this glider would be wrong (of course) but surely I can admit that I dislike it?

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:36:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Using hate to describe this glider would be wrong (of course) but surely I can admit that I dislike it?

The amount of risk taking that went into that particular design is something that ought to be *admired*. Would I buy one? Not a chance. Wrong sailplane for me (and just about everyone else). But I love the gutsy attitude and I'd love to fly that glider on a really strong day (with a really strong wing runner).

Evan Ludeman / T8

At 20:28 01 January 2015, John Firth wrote:
At 19:33 01 January 2015, Robert Buck wrote:
At 18:26 01 January 2015, kirk.stant wrote:
Hate? None so far, thank goodness! But dislike? Schweizer 2-
33 is the
obv=
ious answer (for US and Canadian pilots, at least) due to it's
atrocious
er=
gonomics, lethargic control response, and general ugliness. But
I don't so
=
much dislike it (first glider solo in one, have a lot of time in it
giving
=
rides, and still occasionally fly our club's example, just to
remind
myself=
how much nicer the other gliders are) as think that its time
has past and
=
that it was a poor effort by Schweizer, when you think that the
classic
Bla=
nik L-13 and Schleicher K-7/13s are contemporaries...

But picking on the 2-33 is too easy, so here are two mo

Schweizer 1-34. Looks like it should be a lot of fun, but it's
really
pret=
ty pedestrian to fly, with almost the worst ailerons in any Std
Class
glide=
r. I much prefer the older 1-23 - that's a fun little glider!

Peterson J-4 Javelin. Spoilers for roll control - or lack of it.
Identical=
spoilers for glidepath control, or lack of it. Ugly as sin (but a
big
comf=
ortable cockpit). A truly imaginative attempt at an inexpensive
glider,
bu=
t the cost cutting really shows. I flew one of the first ones
built, and
w=
as unimpressed - and the following day another demo flight in
it ended in
a=
pattern stall-spin fatal crash - due I believe directly to the
weak
ailero=
ns and spoilers, combined with a too high pattern, leading to
an attempted
=
low 360...

That being said, if any of these were all I had to fly and the
day looked
g=
ood, I wouldn't hesitate to jump in any of them and go fly!

Kirk
66

If Gliders are like Beer, it might go like this: After another
cracking soaring day, during the 1969 Nationals at Marfa, the
Glasflugel test pilot and I stood together on the old airbase
ramp, drinking our cans of Coors beer. The lousy capture of
each other's language led mostly to staring at the waning cu's of
the deep blue, West Texas sky. Yet savoring the watery taste of
these versions of German staple, I had to ask...but carefully:
"Herr Muller...How Do You Like Coors Beer?" He responded with
slow and diplomatic word: "Any Beer Is Better Than No Beer."
Smiling, we starred at the sky some more.
Rob RB

I misguidedly posted under a changed header so here goes again.

Nobody picked the 2-22 ; maybe you are all too young, though there a re
few still around. Goerge Moffatt
commented in Soaring mag that the 2-33 was a big improvement over th
2-22, which gives gredence to my
noting it as the worst.

Among the 50 plus types I have flown, the worst are the 2-22 , th
Pratt-Read and probably the Tutor in which
I soloed plus the Kirby Kite II; hard to remember from 55 years ago.
Designs have improved so much that it is hard to rate the most pleasan
types, but the ASW 20, the Kestrel 19, the
Nimbus 2C and the PIk s D and E all are responsive to fly and hav
satisfying performance.
I have not flown a really modern glider but the Nimbus 3T is great whe
you just want to go straight.

A greybeard's recollections.

John F



I have to agree with Kirk, the Peterson J-4 Javelin. I flew one of the
first ones at Bermuda High Soaring in 1974. The handling was awful and I
still think it's one of the ugliest gliders ever. I've seen a lot of
gliders and flown more than 60 different ones.

JLH