Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?

Visual approach is an approach clearance, which means you are also cleared to
descend. No need to report leaving unless explicitly directed to do so by ATC.

Dave Butler wrote:

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

In answering these questions, consider these definintions from the
Pilot/Controller Glossary in the AIM:

PILOT'S DISCRETION - When used in conjunction with altitude assignments,
means that ATC has offered the pilot the option of starting climb or descent
whenever he wishes and conducting the climb or descent at any rate he
wishes. He may temporarily level off at any intermediate altitude. However,
once he has vacated an altitude, he may not return to that altitude.

CRUISE - Used in an ATC clearance to authorize a pilot to conduct flight at
any altitude from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including the altitude
specified in the clearance. The pilot may level off at any intermediate
altitude within this block of airspace. Climb/descent within the block is to
be made at the discretion of the pilot. However, once the pilot starts
descent and verbally reports leaving an altitude in the block, he may not
return to that altitude without additional ATC clearance. Further, it is
approval for the pilot to proceed to and make an approach at destination
airport ...

CLEARED (Type Of) APPROACH - ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute a
specific instrument approach procedure to an airport; e.g., "Cleared ILS
Runway Three Six Approach."


1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?

You may choose to report subsequent descent but you are not required to do
so; if you give such a report, however, then you may not climb back again
without obtaining an additional ATC clearance.


2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

You may descend when you choose to do so; there is no need for you to report
leaving 5000.


3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Yes, you may level off at an intermediate altitude. No, you are not
required to make a report if you choose to do so.


Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...


As above, you are not required to make any of these reports. Generally it
is good practice to make such reports anyway, unless the frequeny is busy,
in which case the controller may not appreciate the extra reports -- that is
a judgment call you can make in each situation. Note that in the case of a
cruise clearance, providing such an extra report may actually result in
limiting your altitude options as noted above.

As a related but interesting issue, have you ever received a CRUISE
clearance? If so, where did you get it and did you request it or was it
assigned? I have obtained all sorts of interesting clearances from ATC,
but whenever I request a CRUISE clearance the reply I usually get from ATC
implies they never heard of it or at least that they never use this -- sort
of like filing "OTP" for an IFR altitude although I have had some greater
success there.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

[Q and A snipped, thanks for your input!]


As a related but interesting issue, have you ever received a CRUISE
clearance? If so, where did you get it and did you request it or was it
assigned? I have obtained all sorts of interesting clearances from ATC,
but whenever I request a CRUISE clearance the reply I usually get from ATC
implies they never heard of it or at least that they never use this --
sort
of like filing "OTP" for an IFR altitude although I have had some greater
success there.


Hello Richard,

After having read that they were so rare, I got "offerred" one on my SECOND
ifr flight after I got my IR last year!

I had filed from KTPL (Temple) to 44TE (a grass strip about 80 nm away,
elevation 900). As I recall the weather was around 4000 scattered. When I
was about 30 miles from 44TE at 6000, it went something like this:

CTR: "N7NZ, let me know if you need a cruise clearance"
N7NZ: "Roger, N7NZ". wracks brain for implications

Few minutes later:
N7NZ: "Center, N7NZ request cruise clearance to 44TE now"
CTR: "Roger, N7NZ is cleared to 44TE, cruise 4000. Cancel this frequency or
on the ground via Flight Service"

I descended into VMC and cancelled on the frequency.

Though it wasn't a factor that day, I believe that in worse weather I would
have then descended to the MIA (which is about 2500 in that vicinity), and
if not visual by then, just climb, reestablish contact with center if
necessary, and work on "plan B" which would involve an instrument approach
to a nearby airport.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Something that has been missed in the responses to your post is that when
given a cruise clearance you can bob up and down between the assigned cruise
altitude and the MEA without any report at all UNTIL you report leaving the
assigned cruise altitude...at that point, ATC can assign 7000 (in your
example) to another aircraft. Don't report leaving until you know for sure
that you won't be going back up. The most practical use of a cruise
clearance is when you suspect that the ride or the weather would be better
at a lower altitude, so you descend without saying a word to ATC and take a
look...if conditions are better, you say "Cessna blah blah requests 5000 (or
whatever) as a hard altitude" and stay there. If they are not, you go back
up or choose an intermediate altitude. Bottom line is that you own the block
of airspace between the assigned cruise altitude and the MEA and can do
whatever you want to do within that block without report UNTIL you make the
report...then you have given up the cruise altitude. Read the "Cruise"
definition in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

I don't think I would "bob up and down" on a cruise clearance. I would request
a block altitude assignment if I want to "bob up and down." A cruise clearance
is also an instrument approach clearance, so once I leave the last assigned for
all I know the controller may be using my Mode C as a de facto report out of
that altitude. I don't have to worry about that possible ambiguity with a block
altitude assignment.

And, I learned a long time ago not to buy into any situation that can become
ambiguous. That doesn't help me nor does it help the controller.

I can certainly descend to an intermediate altitude on a curise clearance, then
level off. But, "bob back up?" not me.

Bob Gardner wrote:

Something that has been missed in the responses to your post is that when
given a cruise clearance you can bob up and down between the assigned cruise
altitude and the MEA without any report at all UNTIL you report leaving the
assigned cruise altitude...at that point, ATC can assign 7000 (in your
example) to another aircraft. Don't report leaving until you know for sure
that you won't be going back up. The most practical use of a cruise
clearance is when you suspect that the ride or the weather would be better
at a lower altitude, so you descend without saying a word to ATC and take a
look...if conditions are better, you say "Cessna blah blah requests 5000 (or
whatever) as a hard altitude" and stay there. If they are not, you go back
up or choose an intermediate altitude. Bottom line is that you own the block
of airspace between the assigned cruise altitude and the MEA and can do
whatever you want to do within that block without report UNTIL you make the
report...then you have given up the cruise altitude. Read the "Cruise"
definition in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

In article , wrote:
I don't think I would "bob up and down" on a cruise clearance. I
would request a block altitude assignment if I want to "bob up and
down."

A cruise clearance *is* a block altitude assignment.

A cruise clearance is also an instrument approach clearance, so once
I leave the last assigned for all I know the controller may be using
my Mode C as a de facto report out of that altitude.

You own the altitude until you report leaving it. Your mode C does not
count as reporting leaving the altitude.

With reference to using Mode C as a defacto report....

5-5-6 Exceptions
{New-2003-15 a. revised August 7, 2003}
a. Do not use Mode C to effect vertical separation with an aircraft on a
cruise clearance, contact approach, or as specified in paragraph 5-15-4,
System Requirements, subparagraph e and f.

Maybe not right on point, but a suggestion that controller's do not
necessarily buy a Mode C readout all the time.

Bob Gardner

wrote in message ...
I don't think I would "bob up and down" on a cruise clearance. I would
request
a block altitude assignment if I want to "bob up and down." A cruise
clearance
is also an instrument approach clearance, so once I leave the last
assigned for
all I know the controller may be using my Mode C as a de facto report out
of
that altitude. I don't have to worry about that possible ambiguity with a
block
altitude assignment.

And, I learned a long time ago not to buy into any situation that can
become
ambiguous. That doesn't help me nor does it help the controller.

I can certainly descend to an intermediate altitude on a curise clearance,
then
level off. But, "bob back up?" not me.

Bob Gardner wrote:

Something that has been missed in the responses to your post is that
when
given a cruise clearance you can bob up and down between the assigned
cruise
altitude and the MEA without any report at all UNTIL you report leaving
the
assigned cruise altitude...at that point, ATC can assign 7000 (in your
example) to another aircraft. Don't report leaving until you know for
sure
that you won't be going back up. The most practical use of a cruise
clearance is when you suspect that the ride or the weather would be
better
at a lower altitude, so you descend without saying a word to ATC and
take a
look...if conditions are better, you say "Cessna blah blah requests 5000
(or
whatever) as a hard altitude" and stay there. If they are not, you go
back
up or choose an intermediate altitude. Bottom line is that you own the
block
of airspace between the assigned cruise altitude and the MEA and can do
whatever you want to do within that block without report UNTIL you make
the
report...then you have given up the cruise altitude. Read the "Cruise"
definition in the Pilot/Controller Glossary.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent
descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000
descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I
report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I
report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so,
do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending
5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

Bob Gardner wrote:

With reference to using Mode C as a defacto report....

5-5-6 Exceptions
{New-2003-15 a. revised August 7, 2003}
a. Do not use Mode C to effect vertical separation with an aircraft on a
cruise clearance, contact approach, or as specified in paragraph 5-15-4,
System Requirements, subparagraph e and f.

Maybe not right on point, but a suggestion that controller's do not
necessarily buy a Mode C readout all the time.

That book has rules then it has rules.

"Bob Gardner" wrote in
news:5cN2c.197384$jk2.708530@attbi_s53:

With reference to using Mode C as a defacto report....

5-5-6 Exceptions
{New-2003-15 a. revised August 7, 2003}
a. Do not use Mode C to effect vertical separation with an
aircraft on a
cruise clearance, contact approach, or as specified in
paragraph 5-15-4, System Requirements, subparagraph e and
f.

Maybe not right on point, but a suggestion that
controller's do not necessarily buy a Mode C readout all
the time.

They may buy the Mode C readout, but they can't trust the
aircraft to stay at the altitude they're reading. A cruise
clearance permits descending and climbing at pilot's discretion.
We use it all the time in the Gulf of Mexico, for instrument
approaches where we can't talk to center once we start a
descent, or often at altitude. We don't often climb back up,
but we might if we lose comm with both center and our company
flight following, and have to climb to regain contact. On a
cruise clearance, the aircraft may either climb or descend,
without the controller having any control over it, thus he can't
rely on the altitude readout to separate traffic.

--
Regards,

Stan

wrote in message ...

I can certainly descend to an intermediate altitude on a curise clearance,
then
level off. But, "bob back up?" not me.

That is fine if you choose not to do so, but the AIM is very clear that such
"bobbing back up" is permissible.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com