ASK 21 spin ballast installation

Stefan wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:

Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
...

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming. Not exactly the kind
of spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program, though.

True, but it is the kind of spin entry one might be looking at if one is
a bit ham-fisted coming out of a slipping turn to final...

At 21:12 01 March 2006, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stefan wrote:
Chuck Griswold wrote:

Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics?

You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.

I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able
to spin the 21
without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.

Technique that has worked for me in just about every
21 or 103 I've
tried it (and I weigh 95 kg or so):

Establish a stable slip, nose slightly higher than
normal, for purposes
of this discussion, left wing down. Apply full left
rudder, at same
time move stick fully right and back. No need to jerk
the controls,
quick smooth movements are all that is needed. You
might have to play
with the slip angle a bit...

Yep that will work as will sitting a Grob 103 on the
stall buffet and applying full left rudder and full
right aileron and stick back. Will not work to the
right very well because of the asymetric nature of
the Grob rudder and the most you will get from either
technique is half a turn unless the front cockpit weight
is very low. The initial pitch down and roll can be
very dramatic but after that it is very benign.

Don Johnstone wrote:
At 21:12 01 March 2006, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Stefan wrote:
Chuck Griswold wrote:

Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics?
You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.

I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able
to spin the 21
without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.
Technique that has worked for me in just about every
21 or 103 I've
tried it (and I weigh 95 kg or so):

Establish a stable slip, nose slightly higher than
normal, for purposes
of this discussion, left wing down. Apply full left
rudder, at same
time move stick fully right and back. No need to jerk
the controls,
quick smooth movements are all that is needed. You
might have to play
with the slip angle a bit...

Yep that will work as will sitting a Grob 103 on the
stall buffet and applying full left rudder and full
right aileron and stick back. Will not work to the
right very well because of the asymetric nature of
the Grob rudder and the most you will get from either
technique is half a turn unless the front cockpit weight
is very low. The initial pitch down and roll can be
very dramatic but after that it is very benign.



There is a pretty good web site on this topic at
http://ocglider.com/Grob_spin_avis.htm
worth a look.

Wear a chute.

I spent alot of time at Estrella in the late 80's. During that time, the
guy who owned the place, Les Horvath, just about spun in a Grob 103. Les is
an extremely talented and experienced acro pilot. He was intentionally
demonstrating a spin while doing a cockpit checkout for a new instructor.
If I am not mistaken, this was the technique he used to spin the 103. The
spin went flat and was not recoverable except by the rear passenger
unbuckling his belts and throwing himself forward over the rear instrument
panel to move the CG. Afterwards he told me personally that he would have
bailed out if he had a chute on. He was that convinced they were not going
to get it unstuck. I think it's just a plain old good idea to wear one any
time this serious of a maneuver is to be attempted.


Mark


"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Marc Ramsey wrote:

Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
...

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming. Not exactly the kind of
spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program, though.

Stefan

Hard to imagine a spin that didn't exceed 60 degrees
of bank and 30 degrees of pitch at some point. Surely
that makes a chute mandatory under FAR's?

I had a spin go flat in a Grob Twin II (essentially
an early version of the Grob 103) when conducting aft
C of G spin tests for UK certification around 1980.
Didn't quite get to the point of unstrapping and leaning
forward, but it took about three turns of cycling the
stick back and forward to 'rock' it out (that's after
the point where it had flattened noticably and a normal
recovery hadn't worked). I was certainly close to
the decidion to bale out.

Careful re-weighing and re-calculation confirmed it
was on aft C of G, but not beyond. Communication with
the manufacturer produced a flat denial that any such
thing had occured during testing in Germany.

Further careful tests, approaching the same condition
gradually, over a number of flights, eventually resulted
in an uneventful spin and recovery with exactly the
same conditions of weight and balance as those when
the problem occurred.

'Rogue' spins are very rare, but they can occurr.
Most of the other accounts of them that I have heard
relate to normally very benign types, such as most
of the Grob varients.



At 00:30 03 March 2006, Mark Lenox wrote:

Wear a chute.

I spent alot of time at Estrella in the late 80's.
During that time, the
guy who owned the place, Les Horvath, just about spun
in a Grob 103. Les is
an extremely talented and experienced acro pilot.
He was intentionally
demonstrating a spin while doing a cockpit checkout
for a new instructor.
If I am not mistaken, this was the technique he used
to spin the 103. The
spin went flat and was not recoverable except by the
rear passenger
unbuckling his belts and throwing himself forward over
the rear instrument
panel to move the CG. Afterwards he told me personally
that he would have
bailed out if he had a chute on. He was that convinced
they were not going
to get it unstuck. I think it's just a plain old
good idea to wear one any
time this serious of a maneuver is to be attempted.


Mark


'Stefan' wrote in message
...
Marc Ramsey wrote:

Technique that has worked for me in just about every
21 or 103 I've
...

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming.
Not exactly the kind of
spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program,
though.

Stefan

Mark Lenox wrote:

Wear a chute.

*Always* wear a chute, not only when spinning! Aerobatics, even
spinning, is pretty safe compared with cross country flying.

In Europe, almost all glider pilots always wear chutes. Not because it's
mandatory (it's not, in most countries even not for aerobatics), but
because, well, just because we do. Over the years, those chutes have
saved many lives. Almost all bail outs were done after midairs, I'm not
aware of one caused by an unrecoverable spin.

Stefan

Chutes are not required for spin training if done by a flight instructor for
maneuvers required by the regulations for a particular certificate. FAR
91.307d2i

So, for one possible example, if you were getting the spin training
requirements taken care of in preparation for a CFI checkride (which
requires spin training), the parachute requirement is removed.

I always wear mine.

Mark


"Chris Rollings" wrote in message
...
Hard to imagine a spin that didn't exceed 60 degrees
of bank and 30 degrees of pitch at some point. Surely
that makes a chute mandatory under FAR's?

I had a spin go flat in a Grob Twin II (essentially
an early version of the Grob 103) when conducting aft
C of G spin tests for UK certification around 1980.
Didn't quite get to the point of unstrapping and leaning
forward, but it took about three turns of cycling the
stick back and forward to 'rock' it out (that's after
the point where it had flattened noticably and a normal
recovery hadn't worked). I was certainly close to
the decidion to bale out.

Careful re-weighing and re-calculation confirmed it
was on aft C of G, but not beyond. Communication with
the manufacturer produced a flat denial that any such
thing had occured during testing in Germany.

Further careful tests, approaching the same condition
gradually, over a number of flights, eventually resulted
in an uneventful spin and recovery with exactly the
same conditions of weight and balance as those when
the problem occurred.

'Rogue' spins are very rare, but they can occurr.
Most of the other accounts of them that I have heard
relate to normally very benign types, such as most
of the Grob varients.



At 00:30 03 March 2006, Mark Lenox wrote:

Wear a chute.

I spent alot of time at Estrella in the late 80's.
During that time, the
guy who owned the place, Les Horvath, just about spun
in a Grob 103. Les is
an extremely talented and experienced acro pilot.
He was intentionally
demonstrating a spin while doing a cockpit checkout
for a new instructor.
If I am not mistaken, this was the technique he used
to spin the 103. The
spin went flat and was not recoverable except by the
rear passenger
unbuckling his belts and throwing himself forward over
the rear instrument
panel to move the CG. Afterwards he told me personally
that he would have
bailed out if he had a chute on. He was that convinced
they were not going
to get it unstuck. I think it's just a plain old
good idea to wear one any
time this serious of a maneuver is to be attempted.


Mark


'Stefan' wrote in message
...
Marc Ramsey wrote:

Technique that has worked for me in just about every
21 or 103 I've
...

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming.
Not exactly the kind of
spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program,
though.

Stefan

jcarlyle wrote:
I'm a new PPG in the USA, and although I wasn't taught in an
"unspinnable" glider...we never did that....

It was thoroughly drummed into me how to initiate spin recovery
when the nose was dropping and a wing was low.

...I would categorically state that if I had ever found myself
in a spin...I would definitely have gotten out of it
(assuming I had the height)....

There has never been any time during my flying career
that I haven't been paying attention to my flying.

...the training I received resulted in me having automatic reflexes....

The ASK-21 is "unspinnable"? Wouldn't matter.


Wow John,

Congratulations today on completion of your sixth month as a rated pilot.

It's good to have faith in yourself, your training, and your ship. Try
to keep an open mind concerning all three, though, because eventually
each of those faiths -- and quite possibly all three at once -- will be
tried, whether on your very next flight, or on your 10,000th.

Here's hoping you make 10,000 -- and that I'm around to see it.


Jack
(still working on my first 100 hrs, in gliders)

Well thanks, Jack, I look forward to seeing you at our 10,000 hour
milestones.

As you point out, I'm a believer in positive thinking. But I temper
this faith by seeking out knowledge regarding potentially dangerous
airborne situations, taking away a lesson from each flight, and
respecting how easily flying can kill those who don't think. I try to
fly relaxed but alert, and I don't push any envelopes nor do I take
chances.

I submit that a positive attitude is safer than cowering in the
cockpit, shaking and hyperventilating, and fearing the plane will
betray me at any second. The reply that you quoted from me was written
to NoSpam, who said "Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable"
gliders has to be one of the the most reckless and dangerous things
done [because] they won't pay attention to how well they are flying".

I take it that you agree with NoSpam - being afraid is the best way to
fly?

-John

Jack wrote:
Wow John,

Congratulations today on completion of your sixth month as a rated pilot.

It's good to have faith in yourself, your training, and your ship. Try
to keep an open mind concerning all three, though, because eventually
each of those faiths -- and quite possibly all three at once -- will be
tried, whether on your very next flight, or on your 10,000th.

Here's hoping you make 10,000 -- and that I'm around to see it.


Jack
(still working on my first 100 hrs, in gliders)

jcarlyle wrote:

Well thanks, Jack, I look forward to seeing you at our 10,000 hour
milestones.

Yours, perhaps. You missed mine. I'll be happy to get a mere thousand in
Gliders.


The reply that you quoted from me was written
to NoSpam, who said "Teaching students to fly in so called "unspinable"
gliders has to be one of the the most reckless and dangerous things
done [because] they won't pay attention to how well they are flying".

He could be right. I've never instructed in Gliders: perhaps he has. I
believe in spin training, but there are respected opinions on both sides
of the issue. People will kill themselves in any aspect of the game --
usually from the same basic cause of not being well prepared for
whatever it is they encounter. When they move up to a readily spinnable
single-seater, and I understand there are some, it might be a huge
advantage to have spun something, even one of the more docile
two-seaters, earlier in their experience.

You report that confidence in your ability to deal with spins and other
aircraft control issues was cemented when you finally did spins -- if I
have read you correctly. That sounds like a recommendation for a
spinnable trainer to me. You were just a little delayed in getting that
phase of your training.


I take it that you agree with NoSpam - being afraid is the best way to
fly?

"Nospam" didn't say anything about being afraid, and I doubt he
advocates it. I can't remember being afraid in an aircraft, though there
have been several instances of "heightened alertness" along the way. I
have noted through the years that some people are afraid of being afraid.

You say there never has been a time when you were not paying attention
to your flying, but eventually there will be -- unless you quit
prematurely, or simply don't take on many challenges. I hope it won't
surprise you too much.


Jack