Missing Engine Log Book

Hello Guys:

I am in the process buying a malibu and I was just told the engine log
is missing (overhauled in 1996, currently 850 hours smoh)but the owner
has MOST of the invoices for the work done during last nine years since
the overhaul. My questions are the following;

1. How much is the discounted value on this airplane without the engine
log?

2. Can a replacement log book be generated with these invoices? if so,
would it be just a record or a log book that is as good as the orginal?


3. To what extent will the reconstructed log book to be considered a
good one. For example: If the seller has the original invoice for the
overhaul work performed with total time recorded and if a paid receipt
for every annual inspection as attached. will this be acceptable?

Thank you in advance for any input.

Jack

wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello Guys:

I am in the process buying a malibu and I was just told the engine log
is missing (overhauled in 1996, currently 850 hours smoh)but the owner
has MOST of the invoices for the work done during last nine years since
the overhaul. My questions are the following;

1. How much is the discounted value on this airplane without the engine
log?

2. Can a replacement log book be generated with these invoices? if so,
would it be just a record or a log book that is as good as the orginal?

No, and it's doubtful that the invoice has even close to the level of detail
the logs had.


3. To what extent will the reconstructed log book to be considered a
good one.

Not much.

For example: If the seller has the original invoice for the
overhaul work performed with total time recorded and if a paid receipt
for every annual inspection as attached. will this be acceptable?

It may be legal, but again, think of how much detail is on an invoice.

Thank you in advance for any input.

Be VERY careful and discount the information DEEPLY.

The engine is worth it's core value only - the log book is what makes
an engine CERTIFIED... Call TCM and ask them what it will cost to get
the engine certified again - and hold on to your wallet...

denny

I'm going to disagree with Denny and say it's not nearly that bad. The
engine is certified if it has the appropriate data plate (seemingly
without regard to what is attached to the data plate G). However, if
indeed there are NO logs, then at this precise moment the engine (and
hence the aircraft) are not airworthy.

Basically all you are going to need to make it airworthy is a sheet of
paper from the AI that did the last annual, with the annual engine
signoff. That done, and without evidence of anything to the contrary,
you are legal to fly. [And don't say that because there is no log book
that you don't know if anything was done since annual to make it
unairworthy. Those are independent events, and the logbook is only one
slight way you might discover such a change.]

Now... the money items: Without proper logbook documentation, it is
harder to sell the plane. Not a big problem if you plan to keep the
plane a long time (by which time you will have probably gone through an
overhaul anyway), but still an issue.

Second, you have no record of exactly what is installed in the engine.
The last annual AI will be attesting to all the AD's performed as of
that time, but you have no formal record that they were properly
carried out. Future AI *could* (and very likely might) insist that
some work be done to verify the AD's before signing off on the next
annual. And you might find yourself doing extensive work (splitting
the case) just to find that your engine didn't even fall under some AD
in the future.

Can you make a NEW logbook? Sure, done all the time. You start by
trying to get copies of the last overhaul records, plus whatever the
manufacturer might still have on that specific serial number. Ditto
the accessories. Then take all the receipts, invoices, etc. And you
make up what you can. Perfectly legal... but doesn't really solve all
the problems above.

Me? I would start with the negotiating position that the engine is due
for overhaul and reduce the price as if the engine was at TBO.

As others have pointed out (and I won't belabor their points) this is not
true.

Jim


"Denny" wrote in message
ups.com...
The engine is worth it's core value only - the log book is what makes
an engine CERTIFIED...

Well, simple enough to find out for sure... He can call the FSDO and
ask them if he makes up a logbook is the engine airworthy... Be
interesting for him to report back to us... I'm always willing to
learn...

denny

Is this really true? You can certify the time on the engine simply by
using the shop records from last annual and adding the time since. You
will probably have to have any ADs resigned, but other than that, I
can't think why you can't recreate the log book.

-Robert

Denny wrote:
Well, simple enough to find out for sure... He can call the FSDO and
ask them if he makes up a logbook is the engine airworthy... Be
interesting for him to report back to us... I'm always willing to
learn...

There's really no requirement to have a logbook for the engine at
all. There are record keeping requirements, but they don't specify you
have to have everything in some type of book.

That said, to be airworthy, all of the ADs on the engine have to be
signed off somewhere. While reciepts with hours and details of work
might be informative, unless they are properly signed off (unlikely),
that doesn't satisfy the requirements. I would think that you'd have
to get the proper signoffs before the engine was airworthy. This might
be a simple as having the original signer recreate the entries in a new
logbook, or as difficult as having all applicable ADs performed again.


John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

There is no set amount here. I have heard 25% off total price for
missing logs (totally missing). There is something in the FARS about
re-creating lost logs. That is what I would do if I owned the plane.
Just create a log for each invoice or something similar. Sign it off as
"recreated log". Better than nothing. I guess I'd argue for 25% of the
value remaining on the engine until TBO? So if the engine is 50% to
TBO, and a zero time is 40k, then 5k off. (25% of 20k)?

"Denny" writes:

Well, simple enough to find out for sure... He can call the FSDO and
ask them if he makes up a logbook is the engine airworthy... Be
interesting for him to report back to us... I'm always willing to
learn...

Why do you think "the logbook" is needed?

Can you point out where the FARs speak of "logbook"?

What are the FAR stated requirements for this "logbook"?

How long must one keep this "logbook"?

-jav