CFI in IMC with Student

I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

--
Roy
N5804F Piper Archer

"I have had some bad landings but I have never missed the runway"

In article t,
Roy Page wrote:
I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

Yes, assuming the CFI is IFR current.

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

It depends. Is the CFI comfortable flying in IMC? How skilled is the
student? For somebody getting close to being ready for their
checkride, it should be no big deal, especially in relatively benign
conditions, and would be a valuble experience for the student.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:24:19 +0000 (UTC), (Roy Smith) wrote:

In article t,
Roy Page wrote:
I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

Yes, assuming the CFI is IFR current.

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

It depends. Is the CFI comfortable flying in IMC? How skilled is the
student? For somebody getting close to being ready for their
checkride, it should be no big deal, especially in relatively benign
conditions, and would be a valuble experience for the student.

It's certainly legal, but can the student count it as "Instrument
Instruction" when adding up the number of required hours before the
checkride? I think not.

--
Jay.
(remove dashes for legal email address)

In article ,
Jay Somerset wrote:

It's certainly legal, but can the student count it as "Instrument
Instruction" when adding up the number of required hours before the
checkride? I think not.

You are correct -- they cannot. One of the few things you get with the II
is the ability to have your instruction count towards the required hours of
instruction for the instrument rating.

On 2005-12-12, Jay Somerset wrote:
It's certainly legal, but can the student count it as "Instrument
Instruction" when adding up the number of required hours before the
checkride? I think not.

Even if the CFI was a CFII, the primary student's instrument experience
would not apply to the instrument rating requirements. Would it apply
to the private "flight by reference to instruments" or whatever it's
called? Why not? Part of my private pilot "hood time" was in actual.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Ben Jackson wrote:
On 2005-12-12, Jay Somerset wrote:

It's certainly legal, but can the student count it as "Instrument
Instruction" when adding up the number of required hours before the
checkride? I think not.


Even if the CFI was a CFII, the primary student's instrument experience
would not apply to the instrument rating requirements. Would it apply
to the private "flight by reference to instruments" or whatever it's
called? Why not? Part of my private pilot "hood time" was in actual.


Flight experience doesnt expire. If the time is dual given by a CFII,
then that time is loggable towards the eventual completion of an
instrument rating. There is no limitation on the Instrument Instruction
given by an authorized instructor based on the "student" pilot rating or
lack therof.

If your CFI for your private was a CFII as well, that time does count
for instrument instruction. If not, it counts for instrument
experience/training/hood time/whatever name you want to put on the
category. Given that MOST pilots require more than the bare minimums to
earn endorsement as proficient, those 3 hours as a private probably wont
be a deal breaker.

In my case, I have instrument experience and instruction that nearly
completes the requirements for an instrument rating. Its also nearly 4
years old. I wont be starting over, but when all the time is added up
when I finally restart and get the rating, it wont be anywheres near the
minimum required hours.

Dave

On 2005-12-13, Dave S wrote:
Ben Jackson wrote:
On 2005-12-12, Jay Somerset wrote:

Even if the CFI was a CFII, the primary student's instrument experience
would not apply to the instrument rating requirements.

Flight experience doesnt expire. If the time is dual given by a CFII,
then that time is loggable towards the eventual completion of an
instrument rating.

61.109(a)(3) 3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane
on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to
instruments...

You can find numerous DE opinions (google groups) saying that is not
equivalent to:

61.65(d)(2) A total of 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument time
on the areas of operation of this section...

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:01:57 GMT, "Roy Page"
wrote:

I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

So long as said CFI meets the requirements to act as PIC in the a/c under
IMC, the answer has to be "yes" as to the legality.

I'm not aware of any circumstances where a CFI has less privileges than a
non-CFI. And there is nothing I am aware of in the regulations that make
my legality to act as PIC contingent on the ratings of anyone else in the
a/c, or their seat position.

So far as the sensibility, I leave that for others to discuss. But I think
whether or not it is sensible depends on the mission objectives.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron, Thanks for your input.

My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from the
right seat.
Am I correct ? I am not sure.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot in
the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under the
hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

Roy


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:01:57 GMT, "Roy Page"
wrote:

I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

So long as said CFI meets the requirements to act as PIC in the a/c under
IMC, the answer has to be "yes" as to the legality.

I'm not aware of any circumstances where a CFI has less privileges than a
non-CFI. And there is nothing I am aware of in the regulations that make
my legality to act as PIC contingent on the ratings of anyone else in the
a/c, or their seat position.

So far as the sensibility, I leave that for others to discuss. But I
think
whether or not it is sensible depends on the mission objectives.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Sorry I meant to say that the Pilot did all the flying from the Left [not
right] seat..


"Roy Page" wrote in message
nk.net...
Ron, Thanks for your input.

My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from
the right seat.
Am I correct ? I am not sure.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot
in the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under
the hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

Roy


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:01:57 GMT, "Roy Page"
wrote:

I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best
!

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

So long as said CFI meets the requirements to act as PIC in the a/c under
IMC, the answer has to be "yes" as to the legality.

I'm not aware of any circumstances where a CFI has less privileges than a
non-CFI. And there is nothing I am aware of in the regulations that make
my legality to act as PIC contingent on the ratings of anyone else in the
a/c, or their seat position.

So far as the sensibility, I leave that for others to discuss. But I
think
whether or not it is sensible depends on the mission objectives.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)