PowerFLARM Brick and PowerFLARM Remote Display Manuals Available

On Wednesday, May 16, 2012 1:37:31 PM UTC-5, ursus wrote:
Note that PowerFLARM does NOT support TIS-B data transmitted by ADS-B ground stations, which is very disappointing.

TIS-B will be discontinued. Investing in a soon to be obsolete
technology is not our top priority…
Nevertheless, we never said we would *not* do it, the PowerFLARM
hardware which currently ships is capable of doing it, but we prefer
to start as simple as possible.
We don’t see it as much of a shortcoming as you *will* get all the
aircraft which are on TIS-B already displayed (just non-directional)
plus you get more (aircraft that TIS-B cannot or does not feel like
broadcasting)

TIS-B is NOT going to be discontinued. Maybe sometime after 2020 when all aircraft are ADS-B equipped, TIS-B will no longer be useful and be phased out, but until then it is a standard part of the US ADS-B deployment.

The non-directional PCAS functionality that is currently implemented in PowerFLARM is extremely primitive compared to the information that is available from TIS-B. For those of us who recreationally fly near or under Class B airspace, accurately seeing the location of all other GA aircraft in my vicinity is a BIG deal. For a glider pilot (and even a GA pilot), PowerFLARM would be a very compelling option if it supported TIS-B and there was a reasonably low cost way to transmit an ADS-B OUT signal. Without TIS-B support, I have absolutely no interest in PowerFLARM; There currently are, lower cost TIS-B compatible solutions available from a variety of vendors (Navworx, SageTech, etc.).

On Thursday, May 17, 2012 9:58:02 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Wednesday, May 16, 2012 1:37:31 PM UTC-5, ursus wrote:
Note that PowerFLARM does NOT support TIS-B data transmitted by ADS-B ground stations, which is very disappointing.

TIS-B will be discontinued. Investing in a soon to be obsolete
technology is not our top priority…
Nevertheless, we never said we would *not* do it, the PowerFLARM
hardware which currently ships is capable of doing it, but we prefer
to start as simple as possible.
We don’t see it as much of a shortcoming as you *will* get all the
aircraft which are on TIS-B already displayed (just non-directional)
plus you get more (aircraft that TIS-B cannot or does not feel like
broadcasting)

TIS-B is NOT going to be discontinued. Maybe sometime after 2020 when all aircraft are ADS-B equipped, TIS-B will no longer be useful and be phased out, but until then it is a standard part of the US ADS-B deployment.

TIS-B IS going to be discontinued, that is and has always been the exact goal of the FAA.... This is like having an argument with a three year old. Not discontinued, but phased out... same f'ing thing. TIS-B was always intended to be an incentive to encourage ADS-B adoption/something to ease a transition to ADS-B and then to be discontinued/phased out.

As I've already commented, TIS-B is likely to get uninteresting fast around 2020 when FAA mandated data-out adoption in the USA fleet is likely to mean significant carriage of 1090ES data-out (which the PowerFLARM sees today) and that ADS-B direct signal will supplant TIS-B, and work everywhere, not reliant on radar coverage etc. Its now almost half way though 2012... and effectively nobody can bureaucratically/financially afford to install ADS-B data-out that is a requirement to receive TIS-B. So likely not many years left in this big picture until TIS-B is just uninteresting.

And TIS-B is only a 'standard part' where its actually currently deployed, congrats if you have local/approach/TRACON and/or area/ARTCC TIS-B coverage today where you fly. Most folks probalby have no idea what exactly is deployed where and can't find out. Yes the FAA is really marketing it that poorly..

The non-directional PCAS functionality that is currently implemented in PowerFLARM is extremely primitive compared to the information that is available from TIS-B. For those of us who recreationally fly near or under Class B airspace, accurately seeing the location of all other GA aircraft in my vicinity is a BIG deal. For a glider pilot (and even a GA pilot), PowerFLARM would be a very compelling option if it supported TIS-B and there was a reasonably low cost way to transmit an ADS-B OUT signal. Without TIS-B support, I have absolutely no interest in PowerFLARM; There currently are, lower cost TIS-B compatible solutions available from a variety of vendors (Navworx, SageTech, etc.).

If and ... and if... and if ... then I'll get a PONY! My own PONY! And my pony will love me. And I'll go riding off into the sunset on my pony!

Meanwhile most folks don't want to wait for highly unlikely "if" to come true, they want stuff today. Few people here are going to care at all about this if that ADS-B data-out install in a glider costs several to $5k or so. Its all just what-if masturbation.

Many USA pilot here have PowerFLARM already installed or have bricks on order and are happy to have a product that addresses directly important needs they have. Please go buy whatever of this wonderful ADS-B hardware you want, bolt whatever PDA and magical traffic/collision avoidance software to that and actually see how well it all works.

And for other folks who think this is important. Remember TIS-B relies on terrestrial SSR radar coverage, so many GA airports and gliderports won't have any TIS-B services at low-altitudes or in the traffic pattern etc. (near the pattern is where I most worry about GA traffic).

For most of us TIS-B support in PowerFLARM is just entirely academic at the moment since we can't install ADS-B data-out in (certified) gliders and ADS-B data-out equipment manufacturers, including Trig, have not yet managed to sort out final ADS-B "b-rev" compliance hardware with the FAA bureaucracy. And even when these issues are sorted out us owners of certified aircraft are likely to (for at least the next handful of years) face a multi-$k cost for the IFR GPS required to install ADS-B data-out. And TIS-B (or ADS-R) won't work without that stupidly expensive ADS-B data-out capability. And those with experimental gliders thinking of skirting around the ADS-B data-out IFR GPS requirements might unfortunately find things magically stop working for them near 2020 (who knows?, but that's one possible scenario).

Darryl

Ok Mike, please explain exactly what hardware/software setup you can install right now, TODAY, in your glider that provides detection of aircraft near you that is equivalent to seeing aircraft that are using Mode A/C, Mode S, 1090ES, and FLARM collision avoidance (glider to glider only, of course).

List the hardware, and approximate cost.

And can it be done legally.

Put up or shut up. Show us your installation in your glider.

TIS-B is a sick joke...

Kirk
66

On Friday, May 18, 2012 1:51:27 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
Ok Mike, please explain exactly what hardware/software setup you can install right now, TODAY, in your glider that provides detection of aircraft near you that is equivalent to seeing aircraft that are using Mode A/C, Mode S, 1090ES, and FLARM collision avoidance (glider to glider only, of course)..

List the hardware, and approximate cost.

And can it be done legally.

Put up or shut up. Show us your installation in your glider.

TIS-B is a sick joke...

Kirk
66

For starters, you can buy a Navworx ADS-B transceiver for ~$2,600. This interfaces with a variety of GPS navigation devices. You get ADS-B IN/OUT including TIS-B and weather.

On Friday, May 18, 2012 8:20:01 AM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Friday, May 18, 2012 1:51:27 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
Ok Mike, please explain exactly what hardware/software setup you can install right now, TODAY, in your glider that provides detection of aircraft near you that is equivalent to seeing aircraft that are using Mode A/C, Mode S, 1090ES, and FLARM collision avoidance (glider to glider only, of course).

List the hardware, and approximate cost.

And can it be done legally.

Put up or shut up. Show us your installation in your glider.

TIS-B is a sick joke...

Kirk
66

For starters, you can buy a Navworx ADS-B transceiver for ~$2,600. This interfaces with a variety of GPS navigation devices. You get ADS-B IN/OUT including TIS-B and weather.

The request was to put up or shut up, not asking for "for starters.." fluff.. So please put up or shut up like Kirk asked...

What is actually installed in your glider?

What are all the parts needed (UAT transceivers, antennas, altitude encoders, GPS sources, displays, display software,...). Models/part numbers? Available today?

What exactly does it do/what features does it have?

How is it legally installed?

What does it all cost to purchase and install?

How many of these systems are flying in other gliders?

---

The claim here was this UAT technology was great for glider pilots worried about GA traffic. Unfortunately that story is full of holes, including the glaring problem that UAT is incompatible with current TCAS/TCAD and PCAS systems, which means a glider with just a UAT transceiver won't be visible to traffic systems that are used today in many airliners, corporate aircraft, private jets, military aircraft etc. (TCAS) and GA aircraft (TCAD and PCAS). UAT technology is just not the direction that I suspect that many glider pilots who really care about GA traffic threats will go. I especially expect they are likely to want to install a transponder. That transponder is compatible with today's TCAS/TCAD and TCAS systems and also makes the glider visible to ATC today, the UAT transceiver will make you visible to ATC as ADS-B services roll out across the USA (but remember not visible to TCAS/TCAD/PCAS etc.). Of course folks who fly with a PowerFLARM in busy GA (and airliner) also benefit greatly from installing a Mode C or Mode S transponder (and maybe in future 1090ES data-out if costs/complexity of doing ever gets addressed). To be fair I would prefer to see the cost of a transponder included in the cost of any system proposed as "great for GA traffic avoidance"... even if the PowerFLARM does PCAS today without needing a transponder installed.

Just in case anybody wants to take this silliness further here are some more questions to think though....

0. NavWorx spec power consumption for the ADS600B, as 0.7A @ 14VDC (=~ 0.8A @ 12 VDC?) *without* a display or external GPS or altitude encoder. This exceeds the total power consumption for many gliders (even transponder equipped ones). What is the actual power consumption seen in use in gliders with a display and other needed hardware? (and yes we've been over this power consumption before on r.a.s. as making the NavWorx ADS-B boxes a non-starter but Mike still loves this mangy pony...).

1. The NavWorx transceiver is just a box with no display. What exact traffic display works well in a glider?

2. Does that traffic display system issue traffic warnings? On screen? Audible beeps? Voice? Where is all the explained in detail?

3. How will the traffic display/warning (if any) system handle situations where there are several close aircraft (e.g. thermalling with other gliders, on-tow, in a busy traffic pattern).

4. Can the system be upgraded to see Flarm/PowerFLARM equipped gliders?

5. Can the traffic data/warnings be displayed on standard glider flight computers or gliding PDA/PNA software? (e.g. esp. using the publicly documented defacto-standard Flarm traffic display protocol).

6. Who has or is developing an STC for install of this transceiver in certified gliders? (STCs are currently required for any ADS-B data-out for all certified aircraft in the USA).

7. I don't believe the NavWorx ADS600-B transceiver is currently TSO approved. Is TSO approval a requirement for install in a certified aircraft (eg. is it required as a part of the process for granting of the required STC)? When is the TSO approval for the transceiver expected?

8. The Navworx ADS600-B transceiver has an internal GPS but that GPS does not meet the 2020 carriage mandate requirements. Will that GPS continue to be work OK with the FAA ground infrastructure or is the FAA likely to require it to be upgraded to an external IFR TSO'ed GPS for ADS-B services to be provided to the aircraft - and what will that upgrade cost?

9. What are some of the typical circle of error for TIS-B traffic threats for different (e.g. approach vs. en-route) SSR radar sources. (TIS-B based threat location is complicated by both the position uncertainty of the SSR radar data, movement of the targets between radar sweeps and delays propagating that data thought all the infrastructure out to ADS-B. This makes TIS-B less useful for close threats and the traffic threat/display software needs to handle this, doing things like reverting to a non-directional threat warning for "close" aircraft. How all this works and how "close" is close (how would you like a few nautical mile threat position uncertainty?). All this are critical details that I would want to see proven by use in gliders before I'd hype TIS-B as anything anybody should actually deploy.).

10. How does the traffic display/warning system handle threat aircraft that are closer than the positional error (i.e. the traffic system really does not know where they are relative to your own aircraft). How does this affect things like warnigns of transponder equipped tow planes when on tow etc.

11. When leaving (or conversely entering) areas/altitudes of TIS-B and ADS-R service coverage how does the traffic display system tell the pilot that those traffic features are now available (or conversely have become unavailable). And be careful, you don't want the traffic system distracting you all the time with status messages.

And if anybody thinks though all these and is still keen I've got *lots* more of these questions :-(

Sigh...


Darryl

On Friday, May 18, 2012 3:29:17 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, May 18, 2012 8:20:01 AM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Friday, May 18, 2012 1:51:27 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
Ok Mike, please explain exactly what hardware/software setup you can install right now, TODAY, in your glider that provides detection of aircraft near you that is equivalent to seeing aircraft that are using Mode A/C, Mode S, 1090ES, and FLARM collision avoidance (glider to glider only, of course).

List the hardware, and approximate cost.

And can it be done legally.

Put up or shut up. Show us your installation in your glider.

TIS-B is a sick joke...

Kirk
66

For starters, you can buy a Navworx ADS-B transceiver for ~$2,600. This interfaces with a variety of GPS navigation devices. You get ADS-B IN/OUT including TIS-B and weather.

The request was to put up or shut up, not asking for "for starters.." fluff. So please put up or shut up like Kirk asked...

What is actually installed in your glider?

What are all the parts needed (UAT transceivers, antennas, altitude encoders, GPS sources, displays, display software,...). Models/part numbers? Available today?

What exactly does it do/what features does it have?

How is it legally installed?

What does it all cost to purchase and install?

How many of these systems are flying in other gliders?

---

The claim here was this UAT technology was great for glider pilots worried about GA traffic. Unfortunately that story is full of holes, including the glaring problem that UAT is incompatible with current TCAS/TCAD and PCAS systems, which means a glider with just a UAT transceiver won't be visible to traffic systems that are used today in many airliners, corporate aircraft, private jets, military aircraft etc. (TCAS) and GA aircraft (TCAD and PCAS). UAT technology is just not the direction that I suspect that many glider pilots who really care about GA traffic threats will go. I especially expect they are likely to want to install a transponder. That transponder is compatible with today's TCAS/TCAD and TCAS systems and also makes the glider visible to ATC today, the UAT transceiver will make you visible to ATC as ADS-B services roll out across the USA (but remember not visible to TCAS/TCAD/PCAS etc.). Of course folks who fly with a PowerFLARM in busy GA (and airliner) also benefit greatly from installing a Mode C or Mode S transponder (and maybe in future 1090ES data-out if costs/complexity of doing ever gets addressed). To be fair I would prefer to see the cost of a transponder included in the cost of any system proposed as "great for GA traffic avoidance"... even if the PowerFLARM does PCAS today without needing a transponder installed.

Just in case anybody wants to take this silliness further here are some more questions to think though....

0. NavWorx spec power consumption for the ADS600B, as 0.7A @ 14VDC (=~ 0.8A @ 12 VDC?) *without* a display or external GPS or altitude encoder. This exceeds the total power consumption for many gliders (even transponder equipped ones). What is the actual power consumption seen in use in gliders with a display and other needed hardware? (and yes we've been over this power consumption before on r.a.s. as making the NavWorx ADS-B boxes a non-starter but Mike still loves this mangy pony...).

1. The NavWorx transceiver is just a box with no display. What exact traffic display works well in a glider?

2. Does that traffic display system issue traffic warnings? On screen? Audible beeps? Voice? Where is all the explained in detail?

3. How will the traffic display/warning (if any) system handle situations where there are several close aircraft (e.g. thermalling with other gliders, on-tow, in a busy traffic pattern).

4. Can the system be upgraded to see Flarm/PowerFLARM equipped gliders?

5. Can the traffic data/warnings be displayed on standard glider flight computers or gliding PDA/PNA software? (e.g. esp. using the publicly documented defacto-standard Flarm traffic display protocol).

6. Who has or is developing an STC for install of this transceiver in certified gliders? (STCs are currently required for any ADS-B data-out for all certified aircraft in the USA).

7. I don't believe the NavWorx ADS600-B transceiver is currently TSO approved. Is TSO approval a requirement for install in a certified aircraft (eg.. is it required as a part of the process for granting of the required STC)? When is the TSO approval for the transceiver expected?

8. The Navworx ADS600-B transceiver has an internal GPS but that GPS does not meet the 2020 carriage mandate requirements. Will that GPS continue to be work OK with the FAA ground infrastructure or is the FAA likely to require it to be upgraded to an external IFR TSO'ed GPS for ADS-B services to be provided to the aircraft - and what will that upgrade cost?

9. What are some of the typical circle of error for TIS-B traffic threats for different (e.g. approach vs. en-route) SSR radar sources. (TIS-B based threat location is complicated by both the position uncertainty of the SSR radar data, movement of the targets between radar sweeps and delays propagating that data thought all the infrastructure out to ADS-B. This makes TIS-B less useful for close threats and the traffic threat/display software needs to handle this, doing things like reverting to a non-directional threat warning for "close" aircraft. How all this works and how "close" is close (how would you like a few nautical mile threat position uncertainty?). All this are critical details that I would want to see proven by use in gliders before I'd hype TIS-B as anything anybody should actually deploy.).

10. How does the traffic display/warning system handle threat aircraft that are closer than the positional error (i.e. the traffic system really does not know where they are relative to your own aircraft). How does this affect things like warnigns of transponder equipped tow planes when on tow etc..

11. When leaving (or conversely entering) areas/altitudes of TIS-B and ADS-R service coverage how does the traffic display system tell the pilot that those traffic features are now available (or conversely have become unavailable). And be careful, you don't want the traffic system distracting you all the time with status messages.

And if anybody thinks though all these and is still keen I've got *lots* more of these questions :-(

Sigh...


Darryl

One thing that is being missed here, is that there are two fundamental categories of glider pilots. There are competition pilots who regularly fly in close proximity to other gliders and who want a system that is designed for that environment. Nobody is disputing that FLARM is a good solution for this application, if all of the other aircraft are FLARM equipped.

There is a second, much larger group of recreational glider pilots, who just want an accurate overview of where all the other aircraft are that are in their vicinity, so they can keep their distance and avoid ever getting close enough to anyone else to trigger an FLARM type of alarm. Many, if not most of these pilots fly near major metropolitan areas, and are, or shortly will be, within range of ADS-B ground stations.

Until there is widespread adoption of ADS-B out equipment in the GA (and airliner) fleet, TIS-B is going to be a very useful feature to give pilots a reason to equip their aircraft with collision avoidance equipment NOW vs waiting for some new technology.

Obviously, to make TIS-B work, you need to generate an ADS-B Out signal. Both the SSA and AOPA should be working with the FAA to resolve any regulatory issues in enabling the deployment of currently available ADS-B OUT technologies in all gliders and GA aircraft. It obviously doesn't make any sense that these low cost systems are OK in Experimental but not in certified aircraft.

Maybe you should redirect some of our negative insulting energy towards the FAA and its idiotic ADS-B Out policies, instead of fellow glider pilots who are trying to make flying safer.

Again, what can you install today in your glider and detect traffic with? With a PowerFLARM, you will get warning of all Mode C, Mode S, and ADS-B traffic - and gliders with FLARM.

Install a Mode S transponder and the big boys will see you, too.

You can call your favorite glider equipment supplier today and get that equipment and install it in your glider for about $4k - and be ready for ADS-B out when that mess gets sorted out.

How much to install the equivalent level of ADS-B/TIS-B in/out hardware & software? Today?

Your argument (and denigration of PFlarm) seems to be centered on 1. "its for racers" and 2. "TIS-B is better and gives me more data".

The first is arguably false. Even if there are no other FLARM - equipped gliders where you fly, the PowerFLARM will give you good warning of other traffic around. Yes, it doesn't give bearing or real range for mode C/S traffic, but that's the same as PCAS which is extremely helpful in getting your eyes out looking for traffic. And guess what - unless all the gliders you fly with are ADS-B out or Mode C/S equipped - you won't see them on ADS-B either!

The second is more subject to opinion - your theoretical TIS-B setup will give you an approximate location of Mode A/S traffic, so that is better than PF. And if you can use the other data, whatever it is (weather?) then obviously PF does not support that (you would need a separate sat wx receiver, if you really cared). But PF gives you position for 1090ES traffic, and collision avoidance for PF equipped gliders.

You decide. Go ahead and wait for the future, and when you are flying to the gliderport using your jetpack, bask in the knowledge that you have the FAA's fancy system in your glider.

I'll drive to the field in my old Jeep and have a system that actually works.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Sunday, May 20, 2012 11:35:38 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
Again, what can you install today in your glider and detect traffic with? With a PowerFLARM, you will get warning of all Mode C, Mode S, and ADS-B traffic - and gliders with FLARM.

Install a Mode S transponder and the big boys will see you, too.

You can call your favorite glider equipment supplier today and get that equipment and install it in your glider for about $4k - and be ready for ADS-B out when that mess gets sorted out.

How much to install the equivalent level of ADS-B/TIS-B in/out hardware & software? Today?

Your argument (and denigration of PFlarm) seems to be centered on 1. "its for racers" and 2. "TIS-B is better and gives me more data".

The first is arguably false. Even if there are no other FLARM - equipped gliders where you fly, the PowerFLARM will give you good warning of other traffic around. Yes, it doesn't give bearing or real range for mode C/S traffic, but that's the same as PCAS which is extremely helpful in getting your eyes out looking for traffic. And guess what - unless all the gliders you fly with are ADS-B out or Mode C/S equipped - you won't see them on ADS-B either!

The second is more subject to opinion - your theoretical TIS-B setup will give you an approximate location of Mode A/S traffic, so that is better than PF. And if you can use the other data, whatever it is (weather?) then obviously PF does not support that (you would need a separate sat wx receiver, if you really cared). But PF gives you position for 1090ES traffic, and collision avoidance for PF equipped gliders.

You decide. Go ahead and wait for the future, and when you are flying to the gliderport using your jetpack, bask in the knowledge that you have the FAA's fancy system in your glider.

I'll drive to the field in my old Jeep and have a system that actually works.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

My only denigration of PowerFLARM is the disappointment that they have no plans to support TIS-B. If TIS-B were supported, we could all agree that PowerFLARM is the best solution for the glider market and move on to the issue of how we can get an economical solution for ADS-B OUT so that TIS-B will actually work as designed.

Anyone who is equipped today with a TRIG 21 and a flight computer that can output its GPS location data in all likelihood has all the hardware they need to implement ADS-B Out. The only problem is cutting thru the FAA red tape so you can actually cable up the GPS to the Trig 21 and turn it on. Once you do that, any ADS-B ground station within range of your glider will start transmitting TIS-B data.

I suspect that there are quite a few PowerFLARM customers who have also ordered or have installed Trig 21 transponders. I'm sure these guys would really appreciate the added TIS-B functionality, so they can accurately see where the other transponder equipped traffic is coming from and where it is going, rather than getting a non-directional PCAS type of alarm, with no idea of whether they have an airliner coming up from behind, or a GA aircraft somewhere up ahead.