FLARM in Stealth Mode at US 15M/Standard Nationals - Loved It!

At 17:56 05 August 2015, 7C wrote:
Other Flarm users. If you are in Stealth you give no more warnings to
othe=
r users than you receive. So non-stealth gliders will not see any more
th=
an your fellow competitors. =20

This has the unfortunate effect of causing gaggles to 'appear' with very
li=
ttle prior warning.

So... a fast moving powered aircraft that happens to have Flarm will have
s=
econds worth of warning that you are about to collide which may not be
suff=
icient. I'd be concerned about the liability issues if this was to
happen
=
because you had degraded your collision avoidance systems - especially in
t=
he US!

This explanation is untrue. Stealth mode does not limit the amount of
information transmitted nor range of the transmission.

Pilots not in stealth mode get exactly the same collision warnings but
their systems will not report to display devices climb rates and vertical
separation accurately beyond 2Km.

Please read section 3.1.7 of the Flarm Configuration Specification document
FTD-14 before you propagate alarmist nonsense.

US glider racing has a very big problem right now -- and it definitely isn't leeching! It is declining participation, fewer contest being offered, contest that are so small that they can't accommodate the several glider classes. Every change that's contemplated now should be viewed through that lens first.

It's perplexing to me that we're experiencing such a decline. The fact is that racing is really fun. But it's even more fun when you know about the presence of gliders around you and especially when you know who's in those gliders. I was certainly disappointed to read that stealth had been mandated in NY. If it were entirely my choice, I'd disallow stealth mode and mandate contest ID association.

For me, the fun factor of PowerFlarm has been a great side benefit to the outstanding safety benefit that it accords. It's just dumb to trash that.

On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:08:08 AM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
The US 15M/Standard Class Nationals required FLARM to be in stealth mode for the duration of the contest. I have to say, I absolutely enjoyed the experience. FLARM became what it was always supposed to be - a collision avoidance tool - rather than a tactical leaching tool. I found that I would get alerts for gliders in the same thermal or approaching/exiting the thermal up to about 1 mile away, but no more. Not a single surprise conflict from a FLARM-equipped glider.

I wonder if others had the same positive experience. I would hope other contests would consider requiring Stealth Mode.


Erik Mann (P3)

The thing that amazes me most about the contest was that the organizers did not require PowerFlarm!! But if you had PowerFlarm it had to be in the stealth mode.

It appears they are much more concerned about leaching than the safety of the competitors.

Richard

This is, indeed, amazing that folks are considering the "risk" of leeching more significant than the risk of collision. Sound like paranoia to me.

Ramy

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 2:17:35 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
This is, indeed, amazing that folks are considering the "risk" of leeching more significant than the risk of collision. Sound like paranoia to me.

Ramy

The genesis of trying the FLARM in stealth mode was when I was flying at the PAGC. Let me first say the PAGC was a very good event and Sarah and crew did an outstanding job. The idea was to use the FAI rules in a contest here in the US. The contest was a success and I like the FAI rules, generally.

There the US Team used team flying and all the FLARM capability we could get together. Poor Jerzey couldn't get away from the pack to do his own thing because he was tagged and followed from the start. It was also sad to see our top guys resort to following someone else rather than doing something brilliant on their own. The results were homogenized. Again, not as fun... I hope the FAI will continue with the movement afoot to go a stealth mode of some sort.

I congratulate the pilots at the 15m/Std Class Nationals at Harris Hill. There were no instances of poor, heads down thermalling that I heard of. FLARM warnings were quite adequate combined eyes-out awareness. The big FLARM debate never materialized at the contest. Everyone seemed content using stealth mode.

The same goes for the finish gate. None of the pilots went crazy with it. I don't remember any showy airshow stuff or iffy landing patterns. It really was no big deal and was more fun for everyone.

Thanks to those who came. Thanks for the sportsmanship and the safe flying. I wish more of you were there.

XC

Hmmm, personally, I never saw much of Jerzy at the PAGC. He usually (wisely) started behind, etc. I am shocked to hear that "FLARM marking" Jerzy was the U.S. team strategy. It certainly wasn't mine.. I (and my team-mate) must have missed that memo. Again, the capability of FLARM "leeching" is being greatly overrated here. It's not a major factor, it just isn't. I wish to debate this as needed.

I strongly suggest that people considering the opinions here replay the flight traces from (for example) the PAGC event for themselves and pay particular attention to the behavior of certain pilots with reference to certain other pilots. The conditions at the PAGC were quite weak (unfortunately) and little tactical flexibility was available to rapidly modify tactics based on a FLARM hit. It was my experience that you had to fly your own air as much as possible and survive as long as you could. If you were with a gaggle it was not because you used FLARM to catch it.

And, FWIW, good luck to anybody who wants to try and stay with Jerzy (or DJ, KM, P7 etc) simply by watching your FLARM screen. It's not going to happen. You may benefit slightly once in awhile but your not going to beat these pilots simply by following them via FLARM data. They will leave you behind in a big hurry.

Ban FLARM or go to Stealth mode, etc. IMO it's not going to make a big (or small) difference. So little that it's irrelevant. I feel the issue is being overblown here.

I thought the 15m class on day 3 at PAGC was a little bit over the top when it came to using FLARM. By that I mean it brought several guys together pre-start and kept them together for very similar flights and scores. Check it out.

I enjoyed the contest very much. The team flying thing was fun but probably would be an entry barrier to new guys if it were the norm for our regionals and nationals.

XC

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:00:42 AM UTC-4, Richard wrote:

It appears they are much more concerned about leaching than the safety of the competitors.

Richard

It's tempting to start name calling here. I think you ought to retract that statement.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 1:00:42 AM UTC-4, Richard wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:08:08 AM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
The US 15M/Standard Class Nationals required FLARM to be in stealth mode for the duration of the contest. I have to say, I absolutely enjoyed the experience. FLARM became what it was always supposed to be - a collision avoidance tool - rather than a tactical leaching tool. I found that I would get alerts for gliders in the same thermal or approaching/exiting the thermal up to about 1 mile away, but no more. Not a single surprise conflict from a FLARM-equipped glider.

I wonder if others had the same positive experience. I would hope other contests would consider requiring Stealth Mode.


Erik Mann (P3)

The thing that amazes me most about the contest was that the organizers did not require PowerFlarm!! But if you had PowerFlarm it had to be in the stealth mode.

It appears they are much more concerned about leaching than the safety of the competitors.

Richard

I would respond that my sense, and that of quite a number of others, is that Flarm, in Stealth mode, provided sense that we had the increased safety margin that Flarm technology offers without the possible negative affects of heads down tactical activity and had not meaningful affect on the race.
I do not think safety was compromised. As F1 said above, one might make a case for slightly more useful range, but that is a matter of opinion.
I thought it gave what we hoped for, without negative consequences.
UH

On 8/6/2015 11:00 PM, Richard wrote:
On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 8:08:08 AM UTC-6, Papa3 wrote:
The US 15M/Standard Class Nationals required FLARM to be in stealth mode
for the duration of the contest. I have to say, I absolutely enjoyed
the experience. FLARM became what it was always supposed to be - a
collision avoidance tool - rather than a tactical leaching tool. I
found that I would get alerts for gliders in the same thermal or
approaching/exiting the thermal up to about 1 mile away, but no more.
Not a single surprise conflict from a FLARM-equipped glider.

I wonder if others had the same positive experience. I would hope other
contests would consider requiring Stealth Mode.


Erik Mann (P3)

The thing that amazes me most about the contest was that the organizers did
not require PowerFlarm!! But if you had PowerFlarm it had to be in the
stealth mode.

It appears they are much more concerned about leaching than the safety of
the competitors.

Richard


As someone without a horse in this race (no PFlarm/interest in flying
competitions), it has more than once occurred to me while "listening" to these
sorts of (very interesting) discussions that PFlarm is a classic example of
better being the enemy of good enough, where good enough is glider-to-glider
(or even GA-to-glider, if adopted by GA) collision avoidance assistance, while
better is any real-or-perceived technical capability processed through humans'
"What if?" filters.

As for Richard's closing observation, that to me seems pretty strongly toward
relatively inaccurate gross oversimplification, doing little (nothing?) to
further the discussion while having significant potential of encouraging flame
warring. Have you anything new to add to the discussion on your thinking
regarding exactly how glider-to-glider safety is degraded through use of
stealth mode as it's been described throughout the years on RAS?

Respectfully,
Bob W.