The cost of war

Whats okay about it? What other business would let their customers
dictate
their prices and then accept only half of the agreed to prices as payment.
Now
even the insurance companies are holding the medical profession to the
same
rules imposed by medicare.



I meant okay, as in we agree.



Um, not so fast. You are being very cras here. The insurance companies
are
doing what makes sense given the system, and I do not see them as evil.
Your jobs example is playing my song though, we need to seperate
healthcare
and jobs.


Evil? No, I wouldn't necessarly impose that description on all of the
Insurance companies but there are many which totally deserve the label.
They
are the tail wagging the dog.


I know that the most frustrating thing is watching the insurance companies
who could be leading the changes just perpetuate the system, but the people
that insurance companies all hire are predisposed to protect the status quo.
Its not evil, its tragic.


So, you could, if you had paid into a policy for your entire life,
have
built up enough reserve for at least one stint of heroic medicine to
extend
your life. This could easily be done for the amount that most workers
pay
into the system now. Also, if you paid more directly, and were more
financially involved in price quality decisions for your care your
health
cost would be much reduced. Instead, you likely have ZERO involvement
even
though you are the best person to police it on the scene.


True to a limited degree but not entirely.


Not entirely, but if you are pooled with others, it will work just fine.

4. State licensing. The licensing system is overly burdensome,
driving
up
costs


You got that one right!

5. Tort. Defensive medicine is used because you cannot be allowed as
a
patient to make decisions based on reasonable outcome expectancies.
Also,
because you have no financial involvement, you just get ALL the tests.
Failure to give a test should not be automatic negligence if its not
called
for the presented systems, unfortunately, juries expect doctors to be
perfect.


Now there is a catch-22 of our current system that has the healthcare
industry
by the preverbial balls. No, you don't just get ALL the tests, in fact
if
tests are run that are NOT indicated by the diagnosis, you are not
going
to get
paid for them and may find yourself going to jail. On the opposite
side,
if
you don't perform the tests that might have caught a treatable
condition,
you
will find yourself facing a malpractice lawsuit.

Doctors are people, their staff consists of people, and people
sometimes
make
mistakes. Nobody, that I know of, is perfect and beyond mistakes. Add
to
our
imperfections, the inability to disassemble the human machine and spec
the
parts to a blueprint, and you are guaranteed that not all diagnosis
will
be
accurate. The medical industry is working hard to try and overcome
these
limitations but it is expensive and will be a long time reaching the
goals.


yep

6. Reverse price competition. Instead of competing on price and
value,
the
present system is a strange maze of over and under payment negotiated
without any of the real customers being involved in the negotiation at
all.


I agree, except on the negotiation part. Too often there is NO
negotiation,
just imposed rules that often can't be understood even by those who
write
them.
I would challenge you to intrepret the rules for CPT coding and
billing.


Only the gov can impose rules. Local providers here started a new
tactic -
throw out the cheapest payor. The patients got letters saying no more
using
this hospital, they called thier company, the company called the payor,
and
the payor blinked and raised its payouts.


Well, yes and no. The bigger insurance companies are taking on many of
the
same rules as the medicare and swing almost as much weight.

7. Inability to refuse care. Emergency rooms cannot turn you away
for
any
reason at all. While inability to pay is likely a good restriction,
how
about we tell you that you are not eligible due to lack of need -
GOODBYE.

That can't be determined without spending time, money, and physician
resources
to determine the "need". Catch-22!


Not always, and less is still better. There are the patients that use
the
system too much. They want service, not just a check out. So, check
them
out, and then tell them they are not an emergency and need to see their
doctor. DO NOT TELL THEM WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM!

Think about it.


I agree with you but it won't work that way. Some have tried.

Or, when you pester the ER all the time, and never pay, we send you
away
for
consistent REFUSAL to pay.


It does not fit to our liberal mentality.


It will when grandpa is waiting for rationed healthcare.

8. Cost shifting of socialist systems from countries with government
healthcare to the US. These systems will begin to fail the day the US
forces the pharmaceutical companies into the same situation they force
our
doctors into. Namely, you must charge the US government covered
patients
the lowest price you charge anyone, or we throw you in jail. Now,
progress
in healthcare will virtually cease.


Ah, you do show some knowledge of this point. Good.

Sorry Sandy, I am not out in any field on this. I am just unwilling
to
look
at the present system and accept it. It sucks. Really, the system we
have
is outside the stadium and it started with job based health insurance.

I would argue that one with you, I feel it started with the Mediare
program and
state Medicaid has inflicted additional injury to the system. The
advent
of
the HMO's was the final nail in the coffen.

Socialist healthcare will not improve the system in the US for anyone
except
the working poor and stupid. 80% of us will suffer.


It won't improve the system for anyone. PERIOD! The working poor and
stupid
already have better access to healthcare than many of the working
middleclass.


We likely mean the same working people, those who make just enough not to
get aid, but not enough to buy the overpriced non-employer group
coverage.


YEP!


Your question assumes that someone would have no insurance until after
they
found they had cancer. Of course, no one will sell it to you then.
That
would be stupid, and wouldn't work. But wait, that's what we have
now.
Once you spend ALL your money, then you get Uncle Sugar to pay. Thus
rewarding lack of financial responsibility.


On this we both agree and disagree. I have been self-employed for over
25
years. I bought a good health insurance policy but over that period of
time,
the costs and coverages of that policy changed. The coverage had to be
constantly dropped with a higher and higher deductable untili it became
just
major medical only. The costs thought, even with dropping coverage
rose
to
over $1500 per month. Alternatives were not existant, nobody would
consider
coverage for less. I finally had to drop out when they wanted to
increase
premiums to $1800 per month. That was five years ago and I have no
idea
what
they would want to charge today.

And they can do this because you are not a group. Their are groups of
self
employed banding together now, but if you are already undesirable risk it
will be hadr to get in one.


I was in a group when this occured. NASE - National Association for
Self-Employed. It was worthless. I joined another group and after about
eighteen months of paying in, we had a couple of Dr. visits and found out
the
coverage was worthless and the company was under investigation and went
belly
up.



Damn, I was hoping these companies migh work out.


Lastly, your link does not support your statement, and is hardly
conclusive
at all. No findings were made on quality of care. Also, healthcare
is
definitely NOT the largest contributor life expectancy. Sanitation,
life
style, diet, and climate would all beat out health care. Your doctor
can
add a year or two on average. Better living and genes can add
decades.


As far as the quality of the healthcare system in the US, it stands
second
to
none. That can easily be seen if you visit any of the major medical
centers in
the US and check out the patient population for the number of foreign
patients
who come here for treatment. If our life expectancy is lower, it can
be
directly attributed to diet and life style.




agreed


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

"Dude" wrote in message
...
No, the point would be to get the best system, but we will not agree on
the
best system because I, and many other Americans, would rather die than
live
under the yoke you would place around our necks. And, you can bet we vote.

The "yoke" would be what?
Getting better care for less money?
Making sure that you and your doctor manage your medical care rather than
some clerk without a medical degree pushing paper around an insurance
office?
The piece of mind that what ever befalls you, your family will not have to
give up their shelter, opportunities for education and their financial
stability?
There is, I suppose, a reason that the rich in Canada go to the US for
treatment but the middle class in America flock to Canada to borrow medical
cards to get treatment they can't afford in the States and every weekend bus
trips are organized for seniors to run across the border to get their
perscriptions filled. I live in a fairly remote town of 7,000 only
accessable by ferry about 35 miles up the coast from Vancouver BC. In the
time since 9/11 we have seen a marked influx of American middle aged people
moving here. One guy I met after a brief misunderstanding as to where he
could park his 182 ( not my hanger) told me his story as to how he ended up
here. Turns out he was employed in an oil company and worked mostly
offshore all his life. When it became time to retire he found that his
health insurance, because his wife had had bout with shingles, would cost
him $2500 a month. That pretty well ate up half his investment income and
he decided to hire a retirement consultant to explore other opportunities.
She somehow came up with our little community. We became friends and often
our conversations drifted to how much the two medical systems differed. He
was amazed that his wife's treatment was far better than what she had
received at home and there was zero paperwork. And the cost for the both of
them? $ 96.00 a month. That $2400 he saves goes into our community and he
decides who gets it rather than disappearing into some multi-national black
hole. He flies his airplane a lot more now too. Too bad we missed taxing
him during his prime working years but you win some you lose some.

"Dude" wrote

I meant okay, as in we agree.

You must have a broadband connection, Dude. Ya' know how I can tell? An
eleven meg post, untrimmed, for the above "me too" comment.

Some would call that rude, or lazy, or another few choice words, especially
if they are on dial-up.

Please take the time?
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 9/22/2004

Boy. Damn! If I felt like that, I'd just climb in a hot bath and open my
veins, 'cuz Kerry doesn't have a prayer.

Rich
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

According to NON_CBS pollsters....
Nearly half the country won't have voted for the November winner.
That's a continuing ****load of unhappy campers, no matter who wins.
The festering divisions between Americans appear to be growing.
If history is any guide, there is no shortage of parallels concerning
the feelings of us home folks, what happened long ago and the
political snafus of Vietnam.

Myself, I don't wish the Bush - Iraq quagmire on anyone.
BUT, if anyone deserves ownership of this mess, it's GWB
and his gang that can't shoot straight, not the guys/gals in
uniform that continue suffering the bullet end of his Iraq folly.

Obviously...
YMMV.

Barnyard BOb -- Anybody seen Robert McNamara?

The "yoke" would be what?

Government control over life saving services that I would no longer have
access too without government approval.

Removal of profit driven research (the most likely kind to get results).


Getting better care for less money?

Only in the short term, long term it would be less for more - Like all other
governmnent systems. (social security, welfare, unemployment, pensions,
etc.)

Making sure that you and your doctor manage your medical care rather than
some clerk without a medical degree pushing paper around an insurance
office?

You will replace a clerk without force of law with one that has that power

The piece of mind that what ever befalls you, your family will not have to
give up their shelter, opportunities for education and their financial
stability?

Because they will not have that choice to save me due to rationing? They
don't have that choice now because it is often forced. Which I also abhore.

There is, I suppose, a reason that the rich in Canada go to the US for
treatment but the middle class in America flock to Canada to borrow
medical
cards to get treatment they can't afford in the States and every weekend
bus
trips are organized for seniors to run across the border to get their
perscriptions filled.

I would love to hear about the card thing, but the prescription costs are a
ruse. If we go social medicine, either we will continue to subsidize them,
or their prices will rise. Either way, medical R&D will likely plummet.

I live in a fairly remote town of 7,000 only
accessable by ferry about 35 miles up the coast from Vancouver BC. In the
time since 9/11 we have seen a marked influx of American middle aged
people
moving here.

Its beautiful there, I am not surprised.

One guy I met after a brief misunderstanding as to where he
could park his 182 ( not my hanger) told me his story as to how he ended
up
here. Turns out he was employed in an oil company and worked mostly
offshore all his life. When it became time to retire he found that his
health insurance, because his wife had had bout with shingles, would cost
him $2500 a month. That pretty well ate up half his investment income and
he decided to hire a retirement consultant to explore other opportunities.
She somehow came up with our little community. We became friends and
often
our conversations drifted to how much the two medical systems differed.
He
was amazed that his wife's treatment was far better than what she had
received at home and there was zero paperwork. And the cost for the both
of
them? $ 96.00 a month. That $2400 he saves goes into our community and
he
decides who gets it rather than disappearing into some multi-national
black
hole. He flies his airplane a lot more now too. Too bad we missed taxing
him during his prime working years but you win some you lose some.


Nice anecdote, Beer and Donuts are a popular breakfast in our medical
center, both by doctors and patients, eh?

Methinks you missed something, and besides its Kb, not Mb.

Even at netzero speeds thats no big deal.

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"Dude" wrote

I meant okay, as in we agree.

You must have a broadband connection, Dude. Ya' know how I can tell? An
eleven meg post, untrimmed, for the above "me too" comment.

Some would call that rude, or lazy, or another few choice words,
especially
if they are on dial-up.

Please take the time?
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.768 / Virus Database: 515 - Release Date: 9/22/2004

The "yoke" would be what?

Government control over life saving services that I would no longer have
access too without government approval.


Yep, when elective procedures are no longer elective and necessary procedures
require long waiting periods.

Removal of profit driven research (the most likely kind to get results).


I must argue the point that profit driven research is the most likely kine to
get results. Yes, profit driven research does achieve results, the research
going on at our many university hospitals is probably achieving greater results
than the profit driven organizations.

The bigger issue might be when the government runs the healthcare industry,
they must also set the salaries of those in the industry. Just how many of our
brightest and most capable future physicians would opt to the medical field if
they know that they will be forced to work for whatever the burro-craps decide
they should earn?


Getting better care for less money?

Only in the short term, long term it would be less for more - Like all other
governmnent systems. (social security, welfare, unemployment, pensions,
etc.)


How ANYONE can concieve that it will be BETTER care is beyond me. Just how
many of them would want to spend an additional 4-10 years in school,
internship, and tens of thousands of dollars to be force to work for the
government at government dictated wages. You have got to look beyond the hype
at what the long term consequences would be.

Making sure that you and your doctor manage your medical care rather than
some clerk without a medical degree pushing paper around an insurance
office?

You will replace a clerk without force of law with one that has that power

The piece of mind that what ever befalls you, your family will not have to
give up their shelter, opportunities for education and their financial
stability?

Because they will not have that choice to save me due to rationing? They
don't have that choice now because it is often forced. Which I also abhore.

There is, I suppose, a reason that the rich in Canada go to the US for
treatment but the middle class in America flock to Canada to borrow
medical
cards to get treatment they can't afford in the States and every weekend
bus
trips are organized for seniors to run across the border to get their
perscriptions filled.

I would love to hear about the card thing, but the prescription costs are a
ruse. If we go social medicine, either we will continue to subsidize them,
or their prices will rise. Either way, medical R&D will likely plummet.

I live in a fairly remote town of 7,000 only
accessable by ferry about 35 miles up the coast from Vancouver BC. In the
time since 9/11 we have seen a marked influx of American middle aged
people
moving here.

Its beautiful there, I am not surprised.


Yes, and they better look out now, after four hurricanes in Florida this year,
many more may be moving up there.

One guy I met after a brief misunderstanding as to where he
could park his 182 ( not my hanger) told me his story as to how he ended
up
here. Turns out he was employed in an oil company and worked mostly
offshore all his life. When it became time to retire he found that his
health insurance, because his wife had had bout with shingles, would cost
him $2500 a month. That pretty well ate up half his investment income and
he decided to hire a retirement consultant to explore other opportunities.
She somehow came up with our little community. We became friends and
often
our conversations drifted to how much the two medical systems differed.
He
was amazed that his wife's treatment was far better than what she had
received at home and there was zero paperwork. And the cost for the both
of
them? $ 96.00 a month. That $2400 he saves goes into our community and
he
decides who gets it rather than disappearing into some multi-national
black
hole. He flies his airplane a lot more now too. Too bad we missed taxing
him during his prime working years but you win some you lose some.


Nice anecdote, Beer and Donuts are a popular breakfast in our medical
center, both by doctors and patients, eh?

Everybody has a story and all of them would support some view or the other.
The grass always appears greener on the other side but such is not always the
case.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

On 27 Sep 2004 14:10:52 GMT, osite (RobertR237)
wrote:

The bigger issue might be when the government runs the healthcare industry,
they must also set the salaries of those in the industry. Just how many of our
brightest and most capable future physicians would opt to the medical field if
they know that they will be forced to work for whatever the burro-craps decide
they should earn?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Whatz gnu?
The HMO's are in effect setting salaries now...
and the effects are observable as we speak.

If govt takes over, I'd guess salaries and costs
would rise while quality of care heads south.

Where do I get such an opinion?
If the govt were in the beer brewing business...
a six pack would cost $25 and Uncle Sam
would still be losing money. g


Barnyard BOb --

"Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message
...
Where do I get such an opinion?
If the govt were in the beer brewing business...
a six pack would cost $25 and Uncle Sam
would still be losing money. g

Mebbe we should privatize national defense? Call 1-800-Rent-An-Army !!!

Rich "Be the best you can be - Wackenhut" S.

"Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message
...
On 27 Sep 2004 14:10:52 GMT, osite (RobertR237)
wrote:

The bigger issue might be when the government runs the healthcare
industry,
they must also set the salaries of those in the industry. Just how many
of our
brightest and most capable future physicians would opt to the medical
field if
they know that they will be forced to work for whatever the burro-craps
decide
they should earn?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Whatz gnu?
The HMO's are in effect setting salaries now...
and the effects are observable as we speak.

If govt takes over, I'd guess salaries and costs
would rise while quality of care heads south.

Where do I get such an opinion?
If the govt were in the beer brewing business...
a six pack would cost $25 and Uncle Sam
would still be losing money. g

You guys wouldn't trust the government with your health care but you'd trust
them with prosecuting and running a war that's killing your children?