Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activated via "activate approach"?

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
Stan Prevost wrote:

FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR, ENTER to
confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.

vs

PROC, ENTER.

True enough. But, the bit of extra stuff earlier on is none the less
easier and I don't have to worry about making sure I am where I am
supposed to be if I "activate."



(and from another post)
I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected removing
the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight, then
everything sequences without pilot intervention

Sam, I have reread your posts trying to make sure I understand your points.
First of all, I didn't know the Garmins would self-activate, so that is
something new I have learned from this thread. More on that later. I
understand that you prefer to perform a more complex task rather than a
two-button-task if you can move the task to a less busy period of the
flight. But the "without pilot intervention" part only happens if you were
already direct to the IAF at the time you deleted the airport waypoint, or
deleted the airport waypoint to make the navigator sequence to the IAF when
instructed to proceed direct to the IAF. Either way, it is the same result
as the simpler activation procedure performed at the same point in time. If
that is not true, then I am missing something in the scenario. Perhaps a
simple example would help.

As far as I can determine, the self-activation feature is not mentioned in
the Garmin manuals. I believe another poster said the same. Personally, I
am a bit uneasy about using undocumented "features" of software in critical
situations. For one thing, we don't really know what is happening and if it
has even been tested. Does it do the required RAIM predictions prior to the
FAF? How would you know, unless it fails? Does this "feature" work under
all conditions? Another thing, you don't know if the "feature" will still
exist, or work the same way, if the software is updated.

I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if they
approve using the navigator this way? Or the FAA?

Stan

On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
snip

I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
they approve using the navigator this way?

Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support transferring me
to very knowledgeable people when I had something besides the usual RTFM
questions. My guess is that the manuals are the problem and that the behavior
is in the design spec.

"Mitty" wrote in message
...


On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
snip

I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
they approve using the navigator this way?

Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support
transferring me to very knowledgeable people when I had something besides
the usual RTFM questions. My guess is that the manuals are the problem
and that the behavior is in the design spec.

I would call them if I understood why I might have anything to gain from
doing so. I don't yet understand how using the undocumented self-activation
"feature" helps anything.

Stan

Stan Prevost wrote:


"Mitty" wrote in message
...



On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
snip


I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
they approve using the navigator this way?


Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support
transferring me to very knowledgeable people when I had something
besides the usual RTFM questions. My guess is that the manuals are
the problem and that the behavior is in the design spec.


I would call them if I understood why I might have anything to gain from
doing so. I don't yet understand how using the undocumented
self-activation "feature" helps anything.


It helps me in avoiding having to activate the approach at a possible
inopportune time.

Stan Prevost wrote:

"Mitty" wrote in message
...



On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
snip


I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
they approve using the navigator this way?


Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support
transferring me to very knowledgeable people when I had something
besides the usual RTFM questions. My guess is that the manuals are
the problem and that the behavior is in the design spec.


I would call them if I understood why I might have anything to gain from
doing so. I don't yet understand how using the undocumented
self-activation "feature" helps anything.

Stan

Here is the official answer from my Garmin associate. He is about at
the top of the engineering food chain the

"Documented or not, I say what you are doing is fine.

We specifically designed the approach selection to do what you describe
because a pilot might learn on an ATIS frequency that he should expect a
particular approach/transition long before he's actually cleared for it.
So, the pilot can get ahead of the game by selecting the
approach/transition and placing it into the flight plan while still
navigating to the airport on his existing clearance. Then, once cleared
for the approach/transition, he can remove the airport from the flight
plan as you indicate, activate a direct-to the initial approach fix, or
whatever he is cleared to do to get established on the approach."

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
Here is the official answer from my Garmin associate. He is about at the
top of the engineering food chain the

"Documented or not, I say what you are doing is fine.

We specifically designed the approach selection to do what you describe
because a pilot might learn on an ATIS frequency that he should expect a
particular approach/transition long before he's actually cleared for it.
So, the pilot can get ahead of the game by selecting the
approach/transition and placing it into the flight plan while still
navigating to the airport on his existing clearance. Then, once cleared
for the approach/transition, he can remove the airport from the flight
plan as you indicate, activate a direct-to the initial approach fix, or
whatever he is cleared to do to get established on the approach."


Thanks, Sam!

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:46:16 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:


Here is the official answer from my Garmin associate. He is about at
the top of the engineering food chain the

"Documented or not, I say what you are doing is fine.

We specifically designed the approach selection to do what you describe
because a pilot might learn on an ATIS frequency that he should expect a
particular approach/transition long before he's actually cleared for it.
So, the pilot can get ahead of the game by selecting the
approach/transition and placing it into the flight plan while still
navigating to the airport on his existing clearance. Then, once cleared
for the approach/transition, he can remove the airport from the flight
plan as you indicate, activate a direct-to the initial approach fix, or
whatever he is cleared to do to get established on the approach."

Thanks for looking into that Sam.

Well, let me posit a scenario.

Flight Plan:

KABC WPTA WPTB WPTC KDEF

After passing WPTB, I either conclude on my own that APPRCH 1 to KDEF is
what I expect, or I am told to expect it. So I select APPRCH1, from IAF1,
and load it. Now the flight plan is

KABC WPTA WPTB WPTC KDEF IAF1 IF FAF MAP MAHP.

I delete the destination airport which causes a discontinuity (lots of
buttons and knobs):

KABC WPTA WPTB WPTC IAF1 IF FAF MAP MAHP.

Now I am still flying with WPTC as the TO waypoint, with the next waypoint
being IAF1.

Now, Case 1: I continue flying to WPTC, on passing it the machine sequences
to IAF1. But I have not been cleared to IAF1, I am still cleared to KDEF.
Problem. Requires unexpected actions. I have to fix it by entering direct
to a waypoint not in the flight plan. Lots of button/knob actions. I'm too
lazy to type it all in.

Case 2: Before reaching WPTC, I am cleared direct to IAF1. Requires pilot
intervention: FPL, press small button to get cursor, scroll down using
large knob to IAF1, Direct, Enter, Enter, FPL. Or, FPL, press small button
to get cursor, scroll down using large knob to WPTC, CLR, ENTER, FPL.

Case 3: I continue flying original flight plan, navigator continues to
sequence along cleared flight plan until I am cleared to fly direct IAF1.
PROC, ENTER, done.

Case 4: I figure that I will get Vectors To Final. So I load the approach,
with an IAF selected or with VTF selected. I delete the destination airport
waypoint. After passing the last enroute waypoint, the machine will
sequence to the IAF, if any, or to the FAF, if VTF. Is its action
consistent with my clearance at that point? As opposed to: upon receiving
the first vector, press PROC, ENTER (if VTF was loaded, otherwise scroll to
the VTF option on the menu and ENTER).

Do these scenarios miss the point?

Stan







"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
Stan Prevost wrote:

FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR, ENTER
to confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.

vs

PROC, ENTER.

True enough. But, the bit of extra stuff earlier on is none the less
easier and I don't have to worry about making sure I am where I am
supposed to be if I "activate."



(and from another post)
I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected removing
the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight, then
everything sequences without pilot intervention

Sam, I have reread your posts trying to make sure I understand your
points. First of all, I didn't know the Garmins would self-activate, so
that is something new I have learned from this thread. More on that
later. I understand that you prefer to perform a more complex task rather
than a two-button-task if you can move the task to a less busy period of
the flight. But the "without pilot intervention" part only happens if you
were already direct to the IAF at the time you deleted the airport
waypoint, or deleted the airport waypoint to make the navigator sequence
to the IAF when instructed to proceed direct to the IAF. Either way, it
is the same result as the simpler activation procedure performed at the
same point in time. If that is not true, then I am missing something in
the scenario. Perhaps a simple example would help.

As far as I can determine, the self-activation feature is not mentioned in
the Garmin manuals. I believe another poster said the same. Personally,
I am a bit uneasy about using undocumented "features" of software in
critical situations. For one thing, we don't really know what is
happening and if it has even been tested. Does it do the required RAIM
predictions prior to the FAF? How would you know, unless it fails? Does
this "feature" work under all conditions? Another thing, you don't know
if the "feature" will still exist, or work the same way, if the software
is updated.

I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if they
approve using the navigator this way? Or the FAA?

Stan

Stan Prevost wrote:

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

Stan Prevost wrote:

FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR,
ENTER to confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.

vs

PROC, ENTER.


True enough. But, the bit of extra stuff earlier on is none the less
easier and I don't have to worry about making sure I am where I am
supposed to be if I "activate."




(and from another post)

I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected
removing the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight,
then everything sequences without pilot intervention


Sam, I have reread your posts trying to make sure I understand your
points. First of all, I didn't know the Garmins would self-activate, so
that is something new I have learned from this thread. More on that
later. I understand that you prefer to perform a more complex task
rather than a two-button-task if you can move the task to a less busy
period of the flight. But the "without pilot intervention" part only
happens if you were already direct to the IAF at the time you deleted
the airport waypoint, or deleted the airport waypoint to make the
navigator sequence to the IAF when instructed to proceed direct to the
IAF. Either way, it is the same result as the simpler activation
procedure performed at the same point in time. If that is not true,
then I am missing something in the scenario. Perhaps a simple example
would help.

The following is via airways but I will just make it like it goes into a
non-aireay Garmin:

Hypothetical KingAir flight:

KEMT
DARTS
LHS
EHF
FMG
LKV
URBIA
KBDN

Before top of descent half way between LKV and URBIA, I check the AWOS
for KBND, and the wind is favoring Runway 16. Shortly, thereafter
Seattle Center asks me whether I want the Bend RNAV Y or Z to Runway 16.
I advise that I want the Z 16 and they reply "expect the Z IAP to 16.

I then load select the Z approach and the DSD transition and load.
Since I am still en route I also take the option step of cleaning up the
flight plan by deleting all waypoints prior to LKV.

Now, I have:

Enroute

LKV
URBIA
KBDN

Approach

DSD
FOMBO
hold
HEKIL
RW16
JOGON
SAKKO
hold

I then delete KBDN and have


LKV
URBIA

Approach

DSD
FOMBO
hold
HEKIL
RW16
JOGON
SAKKO
hold

Everything will sequence without any further action on my part through
the missed approach.

When I pass within 30 miles of the ARP I will have terminal sensitivity
and 2 miles prior to HEKIL I will have approach mode. Since approach
annunciates at that time I have approach RAIM.


As far as I can determine, the self-activation feature is not mentioned
in the Garmin manuals. I believe another poster said the same.
Personally, I am a bit uneasy about using undocumented "features" of
software in critical situations. For one thing, we don't really know
what is happening and if it has even been tested. Does it do the
required RAIM predictions prior to the FAF? How would you know, unless
it fails? Does this "feature" work under all conditions? Another
thing, you don't know if the "feature" will still exist, or work the
same way, if the software is updated.

I believe it will always work because it is part of the ARINC spec for
RNAV flight plans. If it wouldn't work in the future, then the flight
plan wouldn't have "approach" followed by the approach legs.

I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
they approve using the navigator this way? Or the FAA?

It's how all FMSes that I have used work. But, let's find out what
Garmin has to say. I work with one of their engineers who can answer
the question. The FAA wouldn't know squat. ;-)

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
I then delete KBDN and have


LKV
URBIA

Approach

DSD
FOMBO
hold
HEKIL
RW16
JOGON
SAKKO
hold

Everything will sequence without any further action on my part through the
missed approach.

When I pass within 30 miles of the ARP I will have terminal sensitivity
and 2 miles prior to HEKIL I will have approach mode. Since approach
annunciates at that time I have approach RAIM.


OK, that is pretty much what I understood. And I understood that once you
pass URBIA, your navigation will be to the IAF (or feeder fix, whichever it
is) DSD. But you haven't been cleared to DSD, you have only been told to
EXPECT that approach, nothing more, and you are still cleared URBIA.KBDN,
and must continue to fly that route until cleared otherwise.

BTW, I was at KBDN this summer, long way from home base in Alabama. Had
interesting tours of Columbia plant and Epic plant.