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#1
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F15E's trounced by Eurofighters
Hi all
Just saw this and it peaked my interest.. "The New Air Superiority Benchmark Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened. It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best fighter in history. But that is history now! Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins. They have been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker. They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority against Eurofighter Typhoon. Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the future." http://users.boardnation.com/~warpla...y;threadid=445 Cheers |
#2
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John Cook wrote:
The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one That's quite a trick. Were they using their standard sidearms for this? |
#3
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In article , John Cook
wrote: Hi all Just saw this and it peaked my interest.. "The New Air Superiority Benchmark Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened. Bit of hyperbole there. The author lumps the E and C models together. Wake me when the Eurofighter trumps the C. -- Harry Andreas Engineering raconteur |
#4
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"Harry Andreas" wrote in message ... In article , John Cook wrote: Hi all Just saw this and it peaked my interest.. "The New Air Superiority Benchmark Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened. Bit of hyperbole there. The author lumps the E and C models together. Wake me when the Eurofighter trumps the C. If the F-35C is that good, it is one more nail in the F-22's coffin. |
#5
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:30:18 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote: "Harry Andreas" wrote in message ... In article , John Cook wrote: Hi all Just saw this and it peaked my interest.. "The New Air Superiority Benchmark Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened. Bit of hyperbole there. The author lumps the E and C models together. Wake me when the Eurofighter trumps the C. If the F-35C is that good, it is one more nail in the F-22's coffin. Well, keep hoping. You really ought to get your burning hatred of the F-22 checked out by a mental health professional. You're FAR over the line into raving obsession. |
#6
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"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:30:18 -0800, "Tarver Engineering" wrote: "Harry Andreas" wrote in message ... In article , John Cook wrote: Hi all Just saw this and it peaked my interest.. "The New Air Superiority Benchmark Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened. Bit of hyperbole there. The author lumps the E and C models together. Wake me when the Eurofighter trumps the C. If the F-35C is that good, it is one more nail in the F-22's coffin. Well, keep hoping. You really ought to get your burning hatred of the F-22 checked out by a mental health professional. You're FAR over the line into raving obsession. Celebration, Scotty. You were wrong all along. |
#7
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:36:33 +1100, John Cook
wrote: Hi all Just saw this and it peaked my interest.. You mean "piqued", but I digress. "The New Air Superiority Benchmark Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened. ---rest of drivel snipped--- First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a "first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and "ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...." You've described a violation of training and safety regulations. You've described a WVR engagement and don't acknowledge that the standard Eagle tactics would have been to long range radar shoot in the face, then intermediate range IR shoot in the face, then blast through with guns if the kill was not complete. The Eurofighters wouldn't have engaged in a turn/burn WVR engagement and the Eagles would not have been in a "fighting wing" or closer formation so that the Eurofighters could "comfortably gun" the trailing one. In other words, the entire report is pathetically bogus and written by someone without the first clue of air/air engagement or training. I'm not demeaning either the Eurofighter or the RAF, but there is no reasonable conclusion to be drawn from this report regarding superiority of the one or demise of the other. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#8
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Reminds me of the "shocking" 'loss' between the USN and the IAF that was
reported here a year or so back. |
#9
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"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ... On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:36:33 +1100, John Cook wrote: Hi all Just saw this and it peaked my interest.. You mean "piqued", but I digress. "The New Air Superiority Benchmark Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened. ---rest of drivel snipped--- First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a "first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and "ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...." You've described a violation of training and safety regulations. Violation on whose part? |
#10
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On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:04:47 -0000, "Ian" wrote:
"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message .. . First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a "first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and "ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...." You've described a violation of training and safety regulations. Violation on whose part? I can't speak for the RAF, but their regs are remarkably similar to USAF's. It would be a violation to conduct an unbriefed DACT engagement. Spontanous "bouncing" goes on, but it isn't condoned. There's no point in doing it. It doesn't meet any training objectives, it isn't controlled, it is downright dangerous and without pre-briefed ROE proves nothing. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
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