Completing the Non-precision approach as a Visual Approach

"Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message
...
I thought the whole reason for a steep-as-reasonable descent profile
during
a non-precision approach was so that if the airport/runway environment is
in
sight before the MAP, you can take advantage of it and land. If you are
forced to fly not a foot lower to the missed, then therefore you can not
take advantage of the early sighting of the airport. In other words, after
arriving at the MDA and you have the runway environment in sight AND you
see
you're about to enter the cloud bases again, then you therefore "must"
enter
the cloud bases because you're not at the MAP yet? Then the only way to
descend is to request and get cleared for a Contact Approach?

Check out 91.175(b)(1). It all depends on your interpretation of "normal
rate of descent" and "normal maneuvers." Only you know if you're making
normal flight maneuvers or "ducking under" and the only way we'll know if
you were ducking under is if somebody peels you off the side of a hill.

Mat

--
Matthew Waugh
Comm. SEL MEL, CFI-AI
http://home.nc.rr.com/mwaugh/learn2fly/index.htm

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:bphub.176041$9E1.917544@attbi_s52...

When you are cleared for the VOR-A you are expected to fly the
profile....fly at the MDA and not a foot lower to the missed approach
point
or until you see the runway environment as defined in 91.175. When you see
the airport, you should real quick ask for a contact approach...then you
can
follow ground reference and altitude is not a factor.


There isn't much to this airport other than the "runway environment". If
you have the runway environment in sight you can descend below the MDA and
there's no reason to ask for a contact approach.

John Clonts wrote:
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766
AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.

Hilton

In article . net,
Hilton wrote:

John Clonts wrote:
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766
AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.

Let's pick nits...
Is it
Height Above Aerodrome?
or
Height Above Threshhold?

EDR wrote:

In article . net,
Hilton wrote:

John Clonts wrote:
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766
AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.

Let's pick nits...
Is it
Height Above Aerodrome?
or
Height Above Threshhold?

In the U.S. it's HAT for straight-in and HAA for circling. Height Above
Touchdown (the touchdown elevation being the highest point on the first 3,000
feet of the runway). Height Above Airport is based on the highest terrain point
on the airport.

wrote in message
...

Height Above Airport is based on the highest terrain point on the airport.


Not quite. Height Above Airport is based on the highest point on an
airport's usable runways. There may be higher points on ramps or taxiways.

EDR wrote:
Hilton wrote:

John Clonts wrote:
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):


http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766
AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles
out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you
would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for
a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.

Let's pick nits...
Is it
Height Above Aerodrome?
or
Height Above Threshhold?

My point wasn't nitpicking. My point was that at 3 miles out there could be
a little hill that reduces the 766 to less. This becomes very significant
when there are hills on the approach and you think you're at 2000' AGL e.g.
4000 (2000) when actual AGL is significantly less. By saying "airport
elevation" I wasn't picking nits, just being correct since it was a circling
approach.

Hilton

On a circling approach, it's always Height Above Airport (HAA)

EDR wrote:
In article . net,
Hilton wrote:


John Clonts wrote:

I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766

AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.

It's probable that a lot of instrument pilots do not know this.


Let's pick nits...
Is it
Height Above Aerodrome?
or
Height Above Threshhold?

"Hilton" wrote in message
ink.net...
John Clonts wrote:
I'm inbound on the final approach segment of the VOR-A approach at T82
(Fredericksburg Texas):

http://www.myairplane.com/databases/.../T82_vd_gA.pdf

At about 3 miles east of the airport I'm at the MDA of 2460 MSL ("766
AGL"),

This was (one of) your (almost) fatal mistake. At 2460' and 3 miles out,
you probably were not at 766 AGL. The 766 you see is NOT AGL as you would
first think. The 766' is the altitude above the airport elevation (for a
circling approach). Note that 1694 + 766 = 2460.


I did realize this. In fact that's why I put quotation marks around the
"766 AGL". Maybe I should have written it: 766 "AGL".

Thanks for your reply though.

The gist of my question involves either or both of these aspects:

1) Does "having the runway environment in sight...make a normal landing"
in 91.175 mean its ok to descend below MDA, fly a couple more miles to the
airport and then fly the pattern (circle to land), as long as the runway is
still in sight.

2) Once I get to class G airspace on my approach and am clear of clouds in
1 mi vis, can I then descend below MDA by doing something like declaring
myself visual, contact, or canceled IFR.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

The gist of my question involves either or both of these aspects:

1) Does "having the runway environment in sight...make a normal landing"
in 91.175 mean its ok to descend below MDA, fly a couple more miles to the
airport and then fly the pattern (circle to land), as long as the runway
is
still in sight.


Yes.



2) Once I get to class G airspace on my approach and am clear of clouds
in
1 mi vis, can I then descend below MDA by doing something like declaring
myself visual, contact, or canceled IFR.


No, you do not get to Class G airspace at any point at or above the MDA.