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#231
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IFR use of handheld GPS
karl gruber wrote:
Google is your friend! Well, since apparently google is *your* friend and finding the 8260.16s is so effortless for you, would you mind elaborating a little? OK, I'll admit to being clueless, where are the 8260.16s (or at least, what search argument did you use on your friend)? Damn, that's empowering to say!! Glad I was able to brighten your day. Dave |
#232
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IFR use of handheld GPS
There's a link to 8260.16 on:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...idance/orders/ The actual link takes you to: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...dia/826016.pdf which doesn't have anything about airways. Tim. On Fri, 12 May 2006 13:40:44 -0400, Dave Butler wrote: karl gruber wrote: Google is your friend! Well, since apparently google is *your* friend and finding the 8260.16s is so effortless for you, would you mind elaborating a little? OK, I'll admit to being clueless, where are the 8260.16s (or at least, what search argument did you use on your friend)? Damn, that's empowering to say!! Glad I was able to brighten your day. Dave |
#233
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IFR use of handheld GPS
Don't you love the FAA.
TERPS forms are available through: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...0/terps_forms/ which has a link 8260-16: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...ia/8260_16.pdf which provides a blank 8260 - 16 form for specifiying airway data. Seems that order 8260.16 has nothing to do with the 8260-16 form. Still haven't found any populated 8260-16 forms on the web. Cheers, Tim. On Fri, 12 May 2006 12:44:52 -0600, Tim Auckland wrote: There's a link to 8260.16 on: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...idance/orders/ The actual link takes you to: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...dia/826016.pdf which doesn't have anything about airways. Tim. On Fri, 12 May 2006 13:40:44 -0400, Dave Butler wrote: karl gruber wrote: Google is your friend! Well, since apparently google is *your* friend and finding the 8260.16s is so effortless for you, would you mind elaborating a little? OK, I'll admit to being clueless, where are the 8260.16s (or at least, what search argument did you use on your friend)? Damn, that's empowering to say!! Glad I was able to brighten your day. Dave |
#234
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IFR use of handheld GPS
Dave Butler wrote:
Sam Spade wrote: Airways are described in great detail on individual Forms 8260.16, Are the forms 8260.16 available to the public somewhere? Thanks, Dave Not easily. Unlike instrument approach procedures, which are coordinated with the aviation comunity, airways are considered by the FAA to be "non-controversial," thus no public site during coordination. The forms are maintained because they are "dockets" of prior rule-making. |
#235
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IFR use of handheld GPS
Tim Auckland wrote:
Still haven't found any populated 8260-16 forms on the web. One of the appendices to Order 8260.19C, "Flight Procedures and Airspace" has a sample comleted 8260-16. |
#236
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IFR use of handheld GPS
Bruce E. Haddad wrote: The following is from http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...B?OpenDocument (sorry for the long link). It's the GPS that's certified for IFR operations. As such - the regulations controlling pilots simply states that the equipment must be IFR certified. This circular starts to define the certification process. You can dig further into the science for more information. ... AC 20-130A has come up already in response to my question. It presents one way to install an IFR panel-mount GPS unit and get IFR approval for it. But it says nothing about handhelds. I don't think you can conclude that just because IFR approved installations exist that they are required and necessary for all IFR operations. You mentioned all sorts of stuff in you message about apporaches and GPSs getting behind. I think all of the discussion here has only dealt with enroute flying, not approaches. GPS lag is also not the big deal you make it seem. Especially when you're mostly traveling enroute in a straight line. Besides, most modern GPSs have about a one second update rate. That's way faster than the 12 second sweep of enroute radar and even faster than the 4.5 second sweep of approach radar. So you could make the same argument about radar vectors. And then you talk about errors in the GPS system. But all navaids have errors. GPS is, in general, quite a bit more accurate than anything but a localizer. Sure it can go bad, but all navaids have multiple failure modes. Peter |
#237
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IFR use of handheld GPS
Dave Butler wrote:
Sam Spade wrote: Airways are described in great detail on individual Forms 8260.16, Are the forms 8260.16 available to the public somewhere? Thanks, Dave Sample 8260-16 at: http://members.cox.net/aterpster/ |
#238
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IFR use of handheld GPS
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:wsY8g.176221$bm6.114875@fed1read04... .... That is simply incorrect. Airways are described in great detail on individual Forms 8260.16, which include the VOR stations, the IFR altitudes, and the COPs. Each such amendment to an airway is an amendment to Part 95, which is incorporated into the regulation through the federal register by reference. This is virtually the same rule-making procedure used to enact and amend instrument approach procedures under Part 95. Agreed. Airways are well defined with procedures and regulations to ensure that they are safe and flyable. None of that says anything at all about how you must track those well defined airways. Are we talking about the same Part 95? Why would Part 95 get ammended when an airway is redefined? All I see is the definition of altitudes and mountainous areas that apply to all defined airways. .... It is a body of TSO, ACs, and FAA policy postions. The FAA would never feel the need to issue a regulation that states VFR GPS cannot be used for IFR navigation. They see no reason for it, since the body of directives make it clear that only IFR certified avionics can be used for IFR operations. Keep in mind that we have been debating the lack of a regulation that prohibits the use of GPS receivers that are not IFR certified for use during enroute, IFR navigation. I see nothing in what you have stated that "makes it clear" as a regulation. I will agree that the FAA has created the mechanisms to use an IFR-certified GPS for enroute navigation but it still has not said that that is the only way to go. ------------------------------- Travis Lake N3094P PWK |
#239
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IFR use of handheld GPS
"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
... "Sam Spade" wrote in message news:wsY8g.176221$bm6.114875@fed1read04... .... Are we talking about the same Part 95? Why would Part 95 get ammended when an airway is redefined? All I see is the definition of altitudes and mountainous areas that apply to all defined airways. Never mind. I see the detailed references from Part 95 to specific airways. All to define the altitudes to use. Nothing about tracking. I'm still looking though. If you're right, I'm sure it's there somewhere... Now where could it be? There must a statement that says something like, "No person shall use a GPS receiver for IFR enroute navigation unless that receiver is certified for enroute IFR under TSO..." It must be there. I'll keep looking. If you find it, let me know. ------------------------------- Travis Lake N3094P PWK |
#240
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IFR use of handheld GPS
On 05/13/06 12:03, Travis Marlatte wrote:
"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message ... "Sam Spade" wrote in message news:wsY8g.176221$bm6.114875@fed1read04... ... Are we talking about the same Part 95? Why would Part 95 get ammended when an airway is redefined? All I see is the definition of altitudes and mountainous areas that apply to all defined airways. Never mind. I see the detailed references from Part 95 to specific airways. All to define the altitudes to use. Nothing about tracking. I'm still looking though. If you're right, I'm sure it's there somewhere... Now where could it be? There must a statement that says something like, "No person shall use a GPS receiver for IFR enroute navigation unless that receiver is certified for enroute IFR under TSO..." It must be there. I'll keep looking. If you find it, let me know. Yes, if you find it, let us all know. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
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