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#1
February 3rd 04, 03:05 PM
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? For Ed Rasimus
If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance- P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer 
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#2
February 4th 04, 12:11 AM
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#3
February 4th 04, 04:11 PM
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Thanks again Ed. I have read your book, of course, really excellent as well as
"11 Days". I am reading "From the Flight Deck" now, an anthology of carrier warfare writings. P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
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#5
February 4th 04, 06:33 PM
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On 4 Feb 2004 09:21:01 -0800, (John Pelchat)
wrote: Ed Rasimus wrote in message . .. On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote: If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would recommend...thanks in advance- P. C. Chisholm Some books I didn't like a Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good. Ken Bell's "100 Missions North". John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam" Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker" Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 While I am not interested in starting a mud-slinging session or an excahange of flames, I am interested in why you did not like "Phantom Over Vietnam". I wasn't there (too young)and only have the accounts of others to learn from. Thanks in advance & blue skies . . . Good question. I know John Trotti and have exchanged emails with him. Good guy and good combat Marine aviator. I simply didn't like the book because it compiled mission events into single missions, seemingly making them more intense and it described some defensive reactions in areas that such was extremely unlikely. I simply felt it didn't meet my criteria for contribution to the genre. I didn't like Broughton's second book because it was almost totally dedicated to an apologia for the Turkestan incident. Didn't like Bell's book because it recounts a series of his screwups and doesn't even acknowledge that they were screwups. Eschmann's work doesn't do much but recount B-52 missions while totally ignoring the daytime tactical ops of Linebacker II and the supporting night tactical flights. Michel does a much better job of shedding light on what went on. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8
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#6
February 5th 04, 12:47 AM
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Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote: If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would recommend...thanks in advance- P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer Naturally, "When Thunder Rolled"!!! Seriously, the question would have to be if you are seeking historical data or memoirs. In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6 coverage. The best collection of ancedotes book on the naval (and Marine, a little) air war in Vietnam that I've read is "Alpha Strike Vietnam: The Navy's Air War 1964-1973", by Jeffrey L. Levinson. Other than that, I largely concur with Ed's list, although my opinions vary some from his in a few cases. Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie, Cunningham, Madden and others. Not a flaw, a deliberate decision to keep it impersonal owing to the large span of time and number of engagements he was covering, and the fact that he was trying to show operational and tactical trends, not determine who was the WGFP. His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle. Concur, especially with his comparison of claims and losses using _both_ sides' sources, the only way a true historian should work if he's able. Last correspondence I had with him, he was working on a Korean Air War book, with access to the Soviet sources as well as U.S./allied ones. Wayne Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" may be the best overview of the entire air war over NVN. Haven't read that one yet, although I have had one negative review from someone who felt it was far too much parroting the official line. Since Richard P. Hallion was the co-author that wouldn't surprise me a bit -- I've found many of his other books to suffer from the same problem. Unsurprising, as he is the USAF's official historian, but I prefer historians who approach their subjects doing a better job of restraining their inbuilt biases, and who have a more cynical outlook towards the officially approved version, but question and check all such claims. Like Marshall Michel, who demonstrates far more objectivity than Hallion, at least has ever shown in his books that dealt with USAF operations. Jeff Ethell's "One Day in a Long War" which details the activity of May 10, 1972, the start of Linebacker is great. You get the AF attack on Doumer Bridge and Cunningham's three kills and bailout all in one book. Excellent book. Let's not forget to give credit to Dr. Alfred Price, Ethell's co-author (they also collaborated on "Air War South Atlantic," doing a far better job on covering the Falklands War from both sides shortly after it ended, than anyone had a right to expect). A great reference is Chris Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses" which chronologically lists all the fixed wing losses of the entire war with names, tail numbers and a short account of the loss. Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations from Oriskany. John Nichols "On Yankee Station" is also excellent. Agreed on both. And for a personal (and posthumous) memoir, "The Heart of a Man," by Frank (and Marilyn) Elkins, is back in print. For a somewhat less personal overview of Naval and Marine Air in Vietnam than "On Yankee Station," there's Mersky and Polmar's "The Naval Air War in Vietnam." Some books I didn't like a Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good. Personally, I preferred "Going Downtown" because Broughton could be less elliptical than he had to be in Thud Ridge, but I agree that he does get tiresome. Ken Bell's "100 Missions North". Liked it a lot more than you did, more than "Pak Six", but that's probably my bias towards the historical and technological side of things. John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam" Big disagreement between us here. Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker" I prefer Clodfelter's "Limits of Airpower," and of course Michels' "The Eleven Days of Christmas." Guy
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#7
February 5th 04, 12:47 AM
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Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote: If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would recommend...thanks in advance- P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer Naturally, "When Thunder Rolled"!!! Seriously, the question would have to be if you are seeking historical data or memoirs. In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6 coverage. The best collection of ancedotes book on the naval (and Marine, a little) air war in Vietnam that I've read is "Alpha Strike Vietnam: The Navy's Air War 1964-1973", by Jeffrey L. Levinson. Other than that, I largely concur with Ed's list, although my opinions vary some from his in a few cases. Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie, Cunningham, Madden and others. Not a flaw, a deliberate decision to keep it impersonal owing to the large span of time and number of engagements he was covering, and the fact that he was trying to show operational and tactical trends, not determine who was the WGFP. His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle. Concur, especially with his comparison of claims and losses using _both_ sides' sources, the only way a true historian should work if he's able. Last correspondence I had with him, he was working on a Korean Air War book, with access to the Soviet sources as well as U.S./allied ones. Wayne Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" may be the best overview of the entire air war over NVN. Haven't read that one yet, although I have had one negative review from someone who felt it was far too much parroting the official line. Since Richard P. Hallion was the co-author that wouldn't surprise me a bit -- I've found many of his other books to suffer from the same problem. Unsurprising, as he is the USAF's official historian, but I prefer historians who approach their subjects doing a better job of restraining their inbuilt biases, and who have a more cynical outlook towards the officially approved version, but question and check all such claims. Like Marshall Michel, who demonstrates far more objectivity than Hallion, at least has ever shown in his books that dealt with USAF operations. Jeff Ethell's "One Day in a Long War" which details the activity of May 10, 1972, the start of Linebacker is great. You get the AF attack on Doumer Bridge and Cunningham's three kills and bailout all in one book. Excellent book. Let's not forget to give credit to Dr. Alfred Price, Ethell's co-author (they also collaborated on "Air War South Atlantic," doing a far better job on covering the Falklands War from both sides shortly after it ended, than anyone had a right to expect). A great reference is Chris Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses" which chronologically lists all the fixed wing losses of the entire war with names, tail numbers and a short account of the loss. Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations from Oriskany. John Nichols "On Yankee Station" is also excellent. Agreed on both. And for a personal (and posthumous) memoir, "The Heart of a Man," by Frank (and Marilyn) Elkins, is back in print. For a somewhat less personal overview of Naval and Marine Air in Vietnam than "On Yankee Station," there's Mersky and Polmar's "The Naval Air War in Vietnam." Some books I didn't like a Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good. Personally, I preferred "Going Downtown" because Broughton could be less elliptical than he had to be in Thud Ridge, but I agree that he does get tiresome. Ken Bell's "100 Missions North". Liked it a lot more than you did, more than "Pak Six", but that's probably my bias towards the historical and technological side of things. John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam" Big disagreement between us here. Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker" I prefer Clodfelter's "Limits of Airpower," and of course Michels' "The Eleven Days of Christmas." Guy
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#8
February 5th 04, 02:52 PM
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On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 00:47:34 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote: Ed Rasimus wrote: In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6 coverage. The best collection of ancedotes book on the naval (and Marine, a little) air war in Vietnam that I've read is "Alpha Strike Vietnam: The Navy's Air War 1964-1973", by Jeffrey L. Levinson. Other than that, I largely concur with Ed's list, although my opinions vary some from his in a few cases. --remainder snipped-- Might be a good time to let you all know that my second book is in the can, ready to be shipped to the publisher (once again Smithsonian Books.) Should be released in fall of this year. Cover my experiences back at Korat in '72-'73 flying the F-4E. Title is TBD at this time. I've submitted: "Palace Cobra: Fascination With a War". The pointy heads at Smithsonian suggest: "Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights: A Vietnam Air Combat Pilot's Second Tour" I think their title sucks. We'll see. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8
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#9
February 5th 04, 12:48 AM
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Ed Rasimus wrote:
On 03 Feb 2004 15:05:04 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote: If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam air war books you would recommend...thanks in advance- P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer Naturally, "When Thunder Rolled"!!! Seriously, the question would have to be if you are seeking historical data or memoirs. In the historical side, I like John Sherwood's oral history, "Fast Movers" although some folks panned it on Amazon saying it didn't deal with enough USN stuff. I think there's a lot of A-4, A-7, A-6 coverage. The best collection of ancedotes book on the naval (and Marine, a little) air war in Vietnam that I've read is "Alpha Strike Vietnam: The Navy's Air War 1964-1973", by Jeffrey L. Levinson. Other than that, I largely concur with Ed's list, although my opinions vary some from his in a few cases. Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie, Cunningham, Madden and others. Not a flaw, a deliberate decision to keep it impersonal owing to the large span of time and number of engagements he was covering, and the fact that he was trying to show operational and tactical trends, not determine who was the WGFP. His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle. Concur, especially with his comparison of claims and losses using _both_ sides' sources, the only way a true historian should work if he's able. Last correspondence I had with him, he was working on a Korean Air War book, with access to the Soviet sources as well as U.S./allied ones. Wayne Thompson's "To Hanoi and Back" may be the best overview of the entire air war over NVN. Haven't read that one yet, although I have had one negative review from someone who felt it was far too much parroting the official line. Since Richard P. Hallion was the co-author that wouldn't surprise me a bit -- I've found many of his other books to suffer from the same problem. Unsurprising, as he is the USAF's official historian, but I prefer historians who approach their subjects doing a better job of restraining their inbuilt biases, and who have a more cynical outlook towards the officially approved version, but question and check all such claims. Like Marshall Michel, who demonstrates far more objectivity than Hallion, at least has ever shown in his books that dealt with USAF operations. Jeff Ethell's "One Day in a Long War" which details the activity of May 10, 1972, the start of Linebacker is great. You get the AF attack on Doumer Bridge and Cunningham's three kills and bailout all in one book. Excellent book. Let's not forget to give credit to Dr. Alfred Price, Ethell's co-author (they also collaborated on "Air War South Atlantic," doing a far better job on covering the Falklands War from both sides shortly after it ended, than anyone had a right to expect). A great reference is Chris Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses" which chronologically lists all the fixed wing losses of the entire war with names, tail numbers and a short account of the loss. Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations from Oriskany. John Nichols "On Yankee Station" is also excellent. Agreed on both. And for a personal (and posthumous) memoir, "The Heart of a Man," by Frank (and Marilyn) Elkins, is back in print. For a somewhat less personal overview of Naval and Marine Air in Vietnam than "On Yankee Station," there's Mersky and Polmar's "The Naval Air War in Vietnam." Some books I didn't like a Broughton's "Going Downtown", but "Thud Ridge" is pretty good. Personally, I preferred "Going Downtown" because Broughton could be less elliptical than he had to be in Thud Ridge, but I agree that he does get tiresome. Ken Bell's "100 Missions North". Liked it a lot more than you did, more than "Pak Six", but that's probably my bias towards the historical and technological side of things. John Trotti's "Phantom Over Vietnam" Big disagreement between us here. Karl Eschmann's "Linebacker" I prefer Clodfelter's "Limits of Airpower," and of course Michels' "The Eleven Days of Christmas." Guy
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#10
February 6th 04, 07:17 PM
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Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed
in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie, Cunningham, Madden and others. Even worse, Michel admits that "not all of the call signs used . . . in the engagement descriptions are the ones actually used on the missions . . .. . a significant number, however, are generic ones." (Footnote on p. 8.) I found this distracting and unsat. But as Mr. Rasimus notes if you are a student of the SEA air war you can figure out who was flying in some of the better known engagements. That said, I think there is much to recommend this work. It is comprehensively researched using a decent amount of primary source material and generally well written, with endnotes citing authority and providing background throughout. The appendix contains some basic performance data about the F-4 (although far less than the Dash-1, which you can easily purchase these days). Finally, there are numerous charts and graphics created especially for the book that I found very helpful in understanding the three-dimensional world of air-to-air combat. His second work, "Eleven Days of Christmas" is excellent. It really highlights the bureaucratic snafus of SAC vs USAF on the Linebacker II campaign as well as giving the NVN perspective of the battle. Concur. Another thing in this book that's good is the section where Michel debunks several myths that have grown up around the Christmas Bombing campaign, such as the supposed mutiny of SAC crews or the existence of some special killer SAM site. (Two stories that find no support in the historical record.) I would have liked to read more about Linebacker II sorties flown by non-SAC assets such as TAC and the Navair, but I realize that space limitations may have precluded this. Zalin Grant's "Over the Beach" is a great USN book about operations from Oriskany. While this book does a great job describing ops by the Oriskany's air wing during the crucial 1967 time period, it is also notable for going "behind the scenes" as it were and describing the non-flying life of the men in the F-8 squadron profiled. (VF-162? Not sure.) Gant doesn't flinch or sugarcoat when he describes, for example, the liberty antics of "Belly" Bellinger. Nor does he mimimize the tensions and conflicts among the officers as they endure the tremendous pressure and depressing losses. In my view, the combined coverage of both the operational and personal aspects of squadron life make "Over the Beach" one of the top five books about the SEA air war. Elsewhere in this thread, somebody noted that "The Heart of a Man" by Frank & Marilyn Elkins is back in print. This is the posthumously published journal of a guy who was KIA (although carried MIA for years) flying an A-4 in 1967. For this armchair naval aviator wannabe, Elkins' writing brought home to me the amazing personal toll that the war took on families. I defy you to read this one without crying. Also in the same vein is Wynn Foster's book "Captain Hook." Like Gant's work, this book mixes operational and non-operational detail well. And Foster's stories about facing the burdens of command are interesting too. Finally, the story of Foster's fight to stay on active duty after losing an arm is excellent. Getting off the beaten path I'll mention these books, some of which are better than others: "Rolling Thunder" by John T. Smith is fair but only worth reading after you've read everything else. "Cleared Hot" by Bob Stoffey describes land-based efforts by Marine aviators flying A-4s and OV-10s. It's OK. "U.S. Navy F-4 Phantom II MiG Killers" by Brad Edward and Peter Davies is a two-volume work heavy on pictures. I personally liked the ready rooms photos of victorious crews talking with their hands. But if you've been there, done that you may disagree. "Inside Hanoi's Secret Archives," by Malcom McConnell takes advantage of research by a DIA guy named Ted Schweitzer, who was granted access to North Vietnam's archives re the fate of downed American flyers. While this book debunks the claims by some that live POWs remain captive to this day, it is by no means sympathetic to the North Vietnamese in respect of of their treatment of military men they captured. "Vietnam Spook Show," by Wayne Care is a novel by a guy who served as a linguist aboard EC-121s. Granted, it's fiction. But it's a tiny peek into the black world of sigint and commint.
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