tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 16, 8:52*pm, T wrote:
On Jul 15, 11:22*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:


Appears there was another PTT fatality today.

http://wusa9.com/news/article/158647...-In-Md-Plane-C...

Recently reported as sold on W&W

I saw the video, no sound. But the printed article is worthless. All
speculation, look what we tripped over reporting.
Two seat glider? Tow plane involved? Details?
T

http://www.somdnews.com/article/2011...uthernMaryland

As always, these articles are poorly written. This one implies a
release at low level shortly after take off.

F

Originally Posted by Frank Whiteley

On Jul 16, 8:52*pm, T wrote:
On Jul 15, 11:22*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:


Appears there was another PTT fatality today.

http://wusa9.com/news/article/158647...-In-Md-Plane-C...

Recently reported as sold on W&W

I saw the video, no sound. But the printed article is worthless. All
speculation, look what we tripped over reporting.
Two seat glider? Tow plane involved? Details?
T

http://www.somdnews.com/article/2011...uthernMaryland

As always, these articles are poorly written. This one implies a
release at low level shortly after take off.

F

Accuracy in reporting does not seem to be important anymore. We can learn from these things but what we learn might be tempered by the inaccuracy of the information. As I pointed out in another post, even the FAA doesn't seem to be able to accurately describe an incident. If it can't get the runway on which the accident occurred correct, how can it be relied upon to get the cause correct?

Walt

On Jul 17, 6:56*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.
wrote:
Frank Whiteley;777228 Wrote:









On Jul 16, 8:52*pm, T wrote:-
On Jul 15, 11:22*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:-
-
-
Appears there was another PTT fatality today.-
-
http://wusa9.com/news/article/158647...-In-Md-Plane-C...
-
Recently reported as sold on W&W-

I saw the video, no sound. But the printed article is worthless. All
speculation, look what we tripped over reporting.
Two seat glider? Tow plane involved? Details?
T-

http://tinyurl.com/4xvnwb4

As always, these articles are poorly written. *This one implies a
release at low level shortly after take off.

F

Accuracy in reporting does not seem to be important anymore. * We can
learn from these things but what we learn might be tempered by the
inaccuracy of the information. *As I pointed out in another post, even
the FAA doesn't seem to be able to accurately describe an incident. *If
it can't get the runway on which the accident occurred correct, how can
it be relied upon to get the cause correct? *

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...125712073.html
Describes a low level tow release.

From the reports and videos, the crash site can be located on GE to
38°18'49.94"N 76°32'8.78"W

That's about 2075 feet from the end of the runway and about 285 feet
left of the runway center line.
One report mentioned the glider turned left before striking the tree.

There's a line of trees bordering the airport in the GE images.
Summer foliage along Hwy235 is definitely heavier than the GE images,
which are over four years old, dated 3/29/2007.

Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

On Jul 11, 5:38*pm, wrote:
On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...Szybowiec_rozb...

My experience with simulated rope breaks is that it is very important.
After crossing 200 AGL you should have plenty of altitude to make a
safe 180. When i got the runway in sight i noticed i was very high
even. It is just important to stay coordinated and keep your speed

On Jul 17, 2:32*pm, bob goodwin wrote:

After crossing 200 AGL you should have plenty of altitude to make a
safe 180.

There is nothing magic about 200ft. It's quite possible that at 200ft
a turn back just isn't possible. Practice rope breaks must be made
at a point where the instructor *knows* a safe turn back can be made.
Instructors who always pull the plug at 200ft, regardless of wind,
sink, and distance from the airport will eventually kill someone.

I have made tows in a ballasted glider where a turn back would not
have been safe for most the tow. At least one of those times the
contest chief tow pilot was persuaded to change the tow pattern.

Andy

It is extreme. That is the point of flying with an instructor - you get
to learn by doing things you would not try on your own.

Its the same for the student who flies with me. The first time I shut up
all through the flight and let them make the decisions is probably also
"extreme" for them.

Said instructor has ~9000 hours experience. He has done many things
before - the lesson on this occasion was that I had been waaay too
conservative in my flying with the Twins. So he put me in a position
where it was safe to get home, but I would have no option but to use
pretty much all of the available performance.

Great learning experience. You want to avoid cowboys, but the guy who
has been doing this for 30+ years without injury to person or aircraft
is a good bet. So - I have done many extreme things with this
instructor, but never experienced fear. Some others have scared me with
their lack of judgement doing much more mundane flying...

A little extreme, but the CFI has obviously done this before. If you
still have L/d to the field, and know you can fit through or around
the trees.

We concentrate on "landing anywhere on the field that's safe" it does
not always have to be "on the runway."
T

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

On Jul 17, 1:56*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Jul 17, 6:56*am, Walt Connelly Walt.Connelly.









wrote:
Frank Whiteley;777228 Wrote:

On Jul 16, 8:52*pm, T wrote:-
On Jul 15, 11:22*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:-
-
-
Appears there was another PTT fatality today.-
-
http://wusa9.com/news/article/158647...-In-Md-Plane-C....
-
Recently reported as sold on W&W-

I saw the video, no sound. But the printed article is worthless. All
speculation, look what we tripped over reporting.
Two seat glider? Tow plane involved? Details?
T-

http://tinyurl.com/4xvnwb4

As always, these articles are poorly written. *This one implies a
release at low level shortly after take off.

F

Accuracy in reporting does not seem to be important anymore. * We can
learn from these things but what we learn might be tempered by the
inaccuracy of the information. *As I pointed out in another post, even
the FAA doesn't seem to be able to accurately describe an incident. *If
it can't get the runway on which the accident occurred correct, how can
it be relied upon to get the cause correct? *

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...tal-Glider-Cra...
Describes a low level tow release.

From the reports and videos, the crash site can be located on GE to
*38°18'49.94"N * 76°32'8.78"W

That's about 2075 feet from the end of the runway and about 285 feet
left of the runway center line.
One report mentioned the glider turned left before striking the tree.

There's a line of trees bordering the airport in the GE images.
Summer foliage along Hwy235 is definitely heavier than the GE images,
which are over four years old, dated 3/29/2007.

Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254

On 7/21/2011 12:26 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:


http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...tal-Glider-Cra...
Describes a low level tow release.

From the reports and videos, the crash site can be located on GE to
38°18'49.94"N 76°32'8.78"W

That's about 2075 feet from the end of the runway and about 285 feet
left of the runway center line.
One report mentioned the glider turned left before striking the tree.

There's a line of trees bordering the airport in the GE images.
Summer foliage along Hwy235 is definitely heavier than the GE images,
which are over four years old, dated 3/29/2007.

Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254


How many pilots have died because they thought a rudder waggle meant
they must release?

Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. *I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley[/i][/color]

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254[/quote]

Well, after having read the "rest of the story" it is obvious that this was a major misinterpretation of the tow pilots rudder waggle by BOTH pilots. The "copilot" shouts "release, release, release," and the "pilot" fails to properly interpret the rudder wag and releases.

We all make mistakes, unfortunately some of our mistakes can be fatal. We must all continually update our knowledge of emergency signals and procedures to help reduce these kinds of accidents. JMHO.

Walt

On 7/21/2011 1:26 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:

wrote:
Frank Whiteley;777228 Wrote:

On Jul 16, 8:52*pm, T wrote:-
On Jul 15, 11:22*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:-
-
-
Appears there was another PTT fatality today.-
-
http://wusa9.com/news/article/158647...-In-Md-Plane-C...
-
Recently reported as sold on W&W-

I saw the video, no sound. But the printed article is worthless. All
speculation, look what we tripped over reporting.
Two seat glider? Tow plane involved? Details?
T-

http://tinyurl.com/4xvnwb4

As always, these articles are poorly written. This one implies a
release at low level shortly after take off.

F

Accuracy in reporting does not seem to be important anymore. We can
learn from these things but what we learn might be tempered by the
inaccuracy of the information. As I pointed out in another post, even
the FAA doesn't seem to be able to accurately describe an incident. If
it can't get the runway on which the accident occurred correct, how can
it be relied upon to get the cause correct?

Walt

--
Walt Connelly

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...tal-Glider-Cra...
Describes a low level tow release.

From the reports and videos, the crash site can be located on GE to
38°18'49.94"N 76°32'8.78"W

That's about 2075 feet from the end of the runway and about 285 feet
left of the runway center line.
One report mentioned the glider turned left before striking the tree.

There's a line of trees bordering the airport in the GE images.
Summer foliage along Hwy235 is definitely heavier than the GE images,
which are over four years old, dated 3/29/2007.

Looking at all 2011 accidents reported thus far, a good portion
involved pilots with little apparent time in model or particular
glider. I'm just sayin'.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

The rest of the story
http://www.thebaynet.com/news/index....story_ID/23254

(Groan.) Well...sincere praise to the pilot for his honesty 'after the fact.'
How utterly terrible the 'opportunity' to display it, and may no other glider
pilot ever have to make such a choice in the future.

Respectfully (and sorrowfully),
Bob - mental preparation matters! - W.