Myth: 1 G barrel rolls are impossible.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Robert M. Gary writes:

You are assuming that the center of the roll makes a straight line,
that is not the case.

I'm making no such assumption.

The reality is that there will always be an acceleration of 1 G
imposed on the aircraft,

No, there won't


Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061201260116807-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-12 01:11:04 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061201080016807-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-12 00:14:09 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061200011427544-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-11 23:50:07 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:200706112344078930-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-11 23:27:09 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote;

Got a few hours in the 650 way back when. Man, were those
pedals wide apart!! :-))

Yes, good airplane for exploring aerobatics for th eneophyte,
though. Unburstable, except for that prop thing.

That's what got Rollie Cole. Shame.
I miss the old days. I knew a lot of these people up close and
personal.Counting the people we knew on the jet teams and the
rest from the demonstration community, my wife and I have lost
32 friends through the years to low altitude acro
Dudley

Yes. i've lost a few as well. Somehow I managed to survie it
though!

I don't even like doing them at altitude so much these days.
Except for smooth stuff. A freind of mine has just got a Yak 52
and is going nuts in it doing flat spins and what have you..
Gives me a headache just looking at him!

That's weird. I have a friend in Pa. in the financial business
who's into Yaks as well. (Gotta be careful saying this or PETA
will be on my ass here :-)
He has a 52 now and has just bought an 11. I believe he's trying
to put a P&W in the 11 as we speak.
Got another friend in Jersey who's LOA on Mig 21's.
I think the Russians might be invading after all :-)

I'd say we might have some mutual acquantences.


Bertie

Wouldn't surprise me a bit, but fear not if so. Should the Bunyip
become known, his secret is safe and shall remain so.
For your interest, the two people are Seligman and Sutton.

No, don't know them myself, but I think one had A CJ 6 ferried from
Cal a few years ago?

Also, i reckon you also knew a Pinto/ F86 driver that bit off more
than he could chew?

Steve and I knew each other quite well many years ago when he was a
partner in the old Valley Forge Airport in Pa. His partner had a
French wife you had to see to believe. If I remember right (and who
could forget her..her name was Yvette. :-)

Yeah, met her. I worked for him a looong time ago.

Steve had enough patents to choke a horse, including the paraglider
and the Sentinel just to name two. He made a ton of money in his life.
I take it you knew him as well.


Yeah. Not real well, just worked for him.

I don't really know what happened to the 86 the day he went in over in
Jersey and I can't remember if the bird had an Orenda in it or a J47.


Well, i know the FAA guy who had refused to sign him off for the airshow
at 7MY. He only had the thing a couple of weeks and the guy who was
supposed to sign him off refused him a display ticket for an airshow
that weekend on the basis he would probably kill himself even just
trying to land it there (it's less than 3,000 feet long) . He decided to
land there and static display it and land the day before. didn't like
the look of the approach and the engine quit on the go around.

He was kind of famous for things like that. I saw him do a low pass in
that Pinto and pull up vertically and disappear at that very same
airport. He must have been doing 350 down the runway. Not too clever at
a busy field like that. He must have run out of gas in that Stallion
about a dozen times hauling jumpers and his sense around the ramp was
legendary. He nearly blew over a Luscombe I had with that Pinto one day.
Still , he was one clever boy. He had an RC Convair Pogo back in the
'70s when nobody did that kind of thing. All little mechanical
stabilising gyros in it he had made himself. And I can't imagine anyone
else geting the 262 thing going like he did.
BTW, that was the very first airplane I ever sat in when I was all of
5..



Bertie

"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
news:2007061201260116807-dhenriques@rcncom...
On 2007-06-12 01:11:04 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061201080016807-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-12 00:14:09 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:2007061200011427544-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-11 23:50:07 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:

Dudley Henriques wrote in
news:200706112344078930-dhenriques@rcncom:

On 2007-06-11 23:27:09 -0400, Bertie the Bunyip
said:


You guys need to get a room. I haven't seen this much strokin' since
Debbie did Dallas.


Aww, you been huwt.

Awww.

Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

muff528 writes:

Would it be possible to maintain 1g in the seat if the "corkscrew"
were modified to a shape like an opening spiral, similar to a
nautilus shell?

No.

Maybe slip to the right while pulling the nose up to induce
acceleration of 1g. You would continue this maneuver, gradually
flattening the spiral as gravity takes over the acceleration into the
seat until you are again straight and level. You would never "climb"
against gravity at any point since that would create an acceleration
above 1g.

Any time your vertical speed increases positively, you are above 1 G.


Nope.

Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip writes:

You don't even know why you're right, monkey boi.

I know exactly why I'm right, and I must be right with a vengeance if
you feel compelled to admit it.



Nope,

Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Jim Logajan writes:

Drop the nose straight down so as to make the plane & pilot
weightless. Then start doing horizontal loops so the centrifugal
force yields the equivalent of one gravity of weight.

The total force on the aircraft will still be above 1 G unless the
entire loop is in free fall.


Nope.

Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Jim Logajan writes:

You appear to be confusing acceleration and force (you appear at
times to treat them as the same thing), among other faults in your
thinking.

Applying force produces acceleration; acceleration is application of a
force.

But I'm not confusing anything; the confusion I see here is in others.
Apparently physics is not a part of pilot training.


Apparently, But you're stil talking nonsense.

Bertie

Mx -

I don't have a great understanding of physics, and you seem to
understand it - so perhaps you can help me with something.

What happens to the g force acting on me as a pilot if I start in
straight and level, unaccelerated flight, and then I initiate a
coordinated turn?

Tom


On Jun 12, 1:24 am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:
You are assuming that the center of the roll makes a straight line,
that is not the case.

I'm making no such assumption.

The reality is that there will always be an acceleration of 1 G imposed on the
aircraft, in the direction of the ground. There is nothing that you can do in
an aircraft that will eliminate this acceleration, and there is nothing you
can do in an aircraft that changes its height above the ground or its path
over the ground that will not introduce additional acceleration. This is all
basic physics.

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.130...
"muff528" wrote in
news:S1pbi.1718$O15.1221@trnddc03:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
. 130...
"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Bob Moore" wrote in message
46.128...
My name is Bob Moore :-)

Just what is a barrel roll has been debated between "Big John",
Dudley, and myself at least twice in the past. It IS difficult to
describe without having a model airplane in one's hand and flying
it through the maneuver.

How come you don't seem to belive the following from Wikipedia?

Barrel roll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the aerial sport. For the military operation,
see Operation Barrel Roll.
A barrel roll occurs when an object (usually an airplane or roller
coaster)
makes a complete rotation on its longitudinal axis while following
a helical path, approximately maintaining its original direction.
The G load is kept positive (but not constant) on the aircraft
throughout the maneuver, commonly not more than 2-3 G.

In aviation, the maneuver includes a constant variation of attitude
in all three axes, and at the midpoint (top) of the roll, the
aircraft is flying inverted, with the nose pointing at a 90-degree
angle ("sideways") to the general path of flight. The term "barrel
roll" is frequently used, incorrectly, to refer to any roll by an
airplane (see aileron roll), or to a helical roll in which the nose
remains pointed generally along the flight
path. In fact, the barrel roll is a specific and difficult
maneuver; a combination of a roll and a loop. It is not used in
aerobatic competition.

From:
http://acro.harvard.edu

The Barrel Roll is a not competition maneuver. The barrel roll is
a combination between
a loop and a roll. You complete one loop while completing one roll
at the same time.
The flight path during a barrel roll has the shape of a horizontal
cork screw. Imagine a big
barrel, with the airplanes wheels rolling along the inside of the
barrel in
a cork screw path.
During a barrel roll, the pilot experiences always positive G's.
The maximum is about 2.5 to
3 G, the minimum about 0.5 G.


Then would you label the roll that Jim has described here as a form
of aileron roll, instead of a barrel roll? Or do you think it is
possible to do a 1g aileron roll?

It's less of a roll than it is a loop.


In fact, that's how I used to teach it. Get a hula hoop, cut it and
pull the ends apart. you are now looking at the path of a barrel
roll. A skewed loop


Bertie

Would it be possible to maintain 1g in the seat if the "corkscrew"
were modified to a shape like an opening spiral, similar to a nautilus
shell? Maybe slip to the right while pulling the nose up to induce
acceleration of 1g.

No.

Bertie

Damn!

TP

"muff528" wrote in news:V2Abi.5094$3Q4.153
@trnddc05:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.130...
"muff528" wrote in
news:S1pbi.1718$O15.1221@trnddc03:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
. 130...
"Maxwell" wrote in
:


"Bob Moore" wrote in message
46.128...
My name is Bob Moore :-)

Just what is a barrel roll has been debated between "Big John",
Dudley, and myself at least twice in the past. It IS difficult to
describe without having a model airplane in one's hand and flying
it through the maneuver.

How come you don't seem to belive the following from Wikipedia?

Barrel roll
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the aerial sport. For the military
operation,
see Operation Barrel Roll.
A barrel roll occurs when an object (usually an airplane or
roller
coaster)
makes a complete rotation on its longitudinal axis while
following
a helical path, approximately maintaining its original direction.
The G load is kept positive (but not constant) on the aircraft
throughout the maneuver, commonly not more than 2-3 G.

In aviation, the maneuver includes a constant variation of
attitude
in all three axes, and at the midpoint (top) of the roll, the
aircraft is flying inverted, with the nose pointing at a 90-
degree
angle ("sideways") to the general path of flight. The term
"barrel
roll" is frequently used, incorrectly, to refer to any roll by an
airplane (see aileron roll), or to a helical roll in which the
nose
remains pointed generally along the flight
path. In fact, the barrel roll is a specific and difficult
maneuver; a combination of a roll and a loop. It is not used in
aerobatic competition.

From:
http://acro.harvard.edu

The Barrel Roll is a not competition maneuver. The barrel roll
is
a combination between
a loop and a roll. You complete one loop while completing one
roll
at the same time.
The flight path during a barrel roll has the shape of a
horizontal
cork screw. Imagine a big
barrel, with the airplanes wheels rolling along the inside of the
barrel in
a cork screw path.
During a barrel roll, the pilot experiences always positive G's.
The maximum is about 2.5 to
3 G, the minimum about 0.5 G.


Then would you label the roll that Jim has described here as a
form
of aileron roll, instead of a barrel roll? Or do you think it is
possible to do a 1g aileron roll?

It's less of a roll than it is a loop.


In fact, that's how I used to teach it. Get a hula hoop, cut it and
pull the ends apart. you are now looking at the path of a barrel
roll. A skewed loop


Bertie

Would it be possible to maintain 1g in the seat if the "corkscrew"
were modified to a shape like an opening spiral, similar to a
nautilus
shell? Maybe slip to the right while pulling the nose up to induce
acceleration of 1g.

No.

Bertie

Damn!


Stil, be a fairly interesting thing to try. You'd need a pretty powerful
airplane. Maybe you could get to name it.


Bertie