Myth: 1 G barrel rolls are impossible.

Myth:

It is impossible to perform a barrel roll such that the pilot feels exactly
1 gee of force perpendicular to the floor of the cockpit. (Barrel roll is
defined here as the maneuver depicted by the definitions and diagrams on
these website:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_roll
http://www.flightsimbooks.com/jfs/page74.php
http://home.comcast.net/~john.schnei...arrel_roll.jpg )

Fact:

The aspect that I think appears to mislead people is the presence of a
gravitational field and an implied requirement that the axis of the helix
must remain straight and parallel with the (flat) ground. But the latter
requirement can be dispensed with and still yield a recognizable helical
flight path - and that is enough to make a 1 gee barrel roll possible. The
"trick" is accomplished by superimposing two equations of motion:

(1) Start with a "zero gee" parabolic trajectory. So basically the plane
travels laterally over the ground while first traveling up (and then down)
such that the pilot would feel weightless absent any other motions. The arc
is a classic parabola.

(2) Superimpose by vector addition the centrifugal force of the plane
"flying" a circle around (and along) the moving center established by the
parabolic trajectory in (1).

(3) Set the radius and angular speed of the circle in (2) to yield one gee
equivalent force and rotate plane's attitude to keep the centrifugal force
vector perpendicular to the floor. End of procedure.

A reasonable nit pick is that the axis of the helix of the barrel roll
doesn't remain "straight and level." But none of the definitions explicitly
state that requirement. And in any case, it is possible to end the 1 G
barrel roll at the same altitude at which it began.

So there. :-)

(If there is a demand (and I can find more time) I can work out and post
the complete set of equations of motion.)

On Jun 11, 11:09 am, Jim Logajan wrote:
Myth:

It is impossible to perform a barrel roll such that the pilot feels exactly
1 gee of force perpendicular to the floor of the cockpit. (Barrel roll is
defined here as the maneuver depicted by the definitions and diagrams on
these website:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_...arrel_roll.jpg)

Fact:

The aspect that I think appears to mislead people is the presence of a
gravitational field and an implied requirement that the axis of the helix
must remain straight and parallel with the (flat) ground. But the latter
requirement can be dispensed with and still yield a recognizable helical
flight path - and that is enough to make a 1 gee barrel roll possible. The
"trick" is accomplished by superimposing two equations of motion:

(1) Start with a "zero gee" parabolic trajectory. So basically the plane
travels laterally over the ground while first traveling up (and then down)
such that the pilot would feel weightless absent any other motions. The arc
is a classic parabola.

(2) Superimpose by vector addition the centrifugal force of the plane
"flying" a circle around (and along) the moving center established by the
parabolic trajectory in (1).

(3) Set the radius and angular speed of the circle in (2) to yield one gee
equivalent force and rotate plane's attitude to keep the centrifugal force
vector perpendicular to the floor. End of procedure.

A reasonable nit pick is that the axis of the helix of the barrel roll
doesn't remain "straight and level." But none of the definitions explicitly
state that requirement. And in any case, it is possible to end the 1 G
barrel roll at the same altitude at which it began.

So there. :-)

(If there is a demand (and I can find more time) I can work out and post
the complete set of equations of motion.)

Did I miss some context? Was there a debate about this? There are
videos on youtube of people doing barrel rolls with a cup of coffee in
their lap.

-robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
Did I miss some context? Was there a debate about this? There are
videos on youtube of people doing barrel rolls with a cup of coffee in
their lap.

Most everyone agrees that keeping the coffee in the cup is possible. What
some people don't seem to believe is possible is that the force felt by the
pilot (or tea/coffee) can be 1 gee during the entire roll. They believe it
has to vary during the roll. I'm hesitant to name names. ;-)

So yeah, I think there is some need to clear the air.

Jim Logajan writes:

Most everyone agrees that keeping the coffee in the cup is possible. What
some people don't seem to believe is possible is that the force felt by the
pilot (or tea/coffee) can be 1 gee during the entire roll. They believe it
has to vary during the roll. I'm hesitant to name names. ;-)

It has to vary during the roll, because the constant 1 G acceleration due to
gravity does not change. The net acceleration of the aircraft must always be
at least one G in consequence, and if the aircraft begins a climb or ends a
descent, it _must_ be greater than +1.0 G.

On Jun 11, 1:54 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Jim Logajan writes:
Most everyone agrees that keeping the coffee in the cup is possible. What
some people don't seem to believe is possible is that the force felt by the
pilot (or tea/coffee) can be 1 gee during the entire roll. They believe it
has to vary during the roll. I'm hesitant to name names. ;-)

It has to vary during the roll, because the constant 1 G acceleration due to
gravity does not change. The net acceleration of the aircraft must always be
at least one G in consequence, and if the aircraft begins a climb or ends a
descent, it _must_ be greater than +1.0 G.

Bertie! He's doing it again!!!!

On Jun 12, 9:00 am, wrote:
On Jun 11, 1:54 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

Jim Logajan writes:
Most everyone agrees that keeping the coffee in the cup is possible. What
some people don't seem to believe is possible is that the force felt by the
pilot (or tea/coffee) can be 1 gee during the entire roll. They believe it
has to vary during the roll. I'm hesitant to name names. ;-)

It has to vary during the roll, because the constant 1 G acceleration due to
gravity does not change. The net acceleration of the aircraft must always be
at least one G in consequence, and if the aircraft begins a climb or ends a
descent, it _must_ be greater than +1.0 G.

Bertie! He's doing it again!!!!

Well you have to admit where he does his 'aerobatics' he is under 1g
constantly
ROTFL
Where we do aerobatics its somewhat different as we do them in
aeroplanes...

wrote in
oups.com:

On Jun 11, 1:54 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Jim Logajan writes:
Most everyone agrees that keeping the coffee in the cup is
possible. What some people don't seem to believe is possible is
that the force felt by the pilot (or tea/coffee) can be 1 gee
during the entire roll. They believe it has to vary during the
roll. I'm hesitant to name names. ;-)

It has to vary during the roll, because the constant 1 G acceleration
due to gravity does not change. The net acceleration of the aircraft
must always be at least one G in consequence, and if the aircraft
begins a climb or ends a descent, it _must_ be greater than +1.0 G.

Bertie! He's doing it again!!!!

Doing what?


He's vaguely right, but only because he's pirating some **** he got off
the net.

I coudl get just as good a response from my pet polecat by taping a page
from Wikepedia to him.



Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote:

Jim Logajan writes:


Most everyone agrees that keeping the coffee in the cup is possible. What
some people don't seem to believe is possible is that the force felt by the
pilot (or tea/coffee) can be 1 gee during the entire roll. They believe it
has to vary during the roll. I'm hesitant to name names. ;-)


It has to vary during the roll, because the constant 1 G acceleration due to
gravity does not change. The net acceleration of the aircraft must always be
at least one G in consequence, and if the aircraft begins a climb or ends a
descent, it _must_ be greater than +1.0 G.

With any luck your monitor will fall on you.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Jim Logajan writes:

Most everyone agrees that keeping the coffee in the cup is possible.
What some people don't seem to believe is possible is that the force
felt by the pilot (or tea/coffee) can be 1 gee during the entire
roll. They believe it has to vary during the roll. I'm hesitant to
name names. ;-)

It has to vary during the roll, because the constant 1 G acceleration
due to gravity does not change. The net acceleration of the aircraft
must always be at least one G in consequence, and if the aircraft
begins a climb or ends a descent, it _must_ be greater than +1.0 G.

Sigh. Yes, the force that is felt is greater then one g-force at the
beginning and end of the maneuver. But that is not the case "during the
roll" itself. Again, as in the other post of yours I responded to, you
appear to be confusing force and acceleration.

The few that I've done, and it is only a few, the g forces were noticeably
less at the top of the roll. I was still pressing into the seat, but not as
much. Just as in a loop, the g forces are lower at the top of the loop.

mike

"Jim Logajan" wrote in message
.. .
Mxsmanic wrote:
Jim Logajan writes:

Most everyone agrees that keeping the coffee in the cup is possible.
What some people don't seem to believe is possible is that the force
felt by the pilot (or tea/coffee) can be 1 gee during the entire
roll. They believe it has to vary during the roll. I'm hesitant to
name names. ;-)

It has to vary during the roll, because the constant 1 G acceleration
due to gravity does not change. The net acceleration of the aircraft
must always be at least one G in consequence, and if the aircraft
begins a climb or ends a descent, it _must_ be greater than +1.0 G.

Sigh. Yes, the force that is felt is greater then one g-force at the
beginning and end of the maneuver. But that is not the case "during the
roll" itself. Again, as in the other post of yours I responded to, you
appear to be confusing force and acceleration.