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#1
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"cleared to ... when direct ..."
Got an odd clearance the other day, on climbout from Santa Monica
(IFR but in perfect VMC): "climb and maintain 6000 when direct Ventura". I took this to mean that someone would later clear me direct VTU, whereupon I would climb. However I never got such a clearance, and later an evidently nervous controller called me, cleared me to 6000', and asked me if I had the terrain in sight (which I did, but it was getting close for IFR though not worrying visually). I wonder what this clearance really meant? Did it mean "when ABLE direct", i.e. when I could receive the VOR (which I couldn't initially although I was filed /G anyway)? Or did someone just forget to give me the subsequent clearance? John |
#2
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In article 1076365605.761786@sj-nntpcache-3,
"John Harper" wrote: Got an odd clearance the other day, on climbout from Santa Monica (IFR but in perfect VMC): "climb and maintain 6000 when direct Ventura". I took this to mean that someone would later clear me direct VTU, whereupon I would climb. However I never got such a clearance, and later an evidently nervous controller called me, cleared me to 6000', and asked me if I had the terrain in sight (which I did, but it was getting close for IFR though not worrying visually). I suspect you dropped a word (or he did). It sounds like it should have been "climb and maintain 6000. When able, direct Ventura". I would have started a climb to 6000, taken a WAG at the heading to Ventura, turned to that heading, and begun to tune in the VOR (or hit direct on the GPS). Once I had a good signal, I would have tracked it direct. |
#3
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I'm going to quibble with Roy just a bit. "When able," in my mind, means
"when you can proceed direct without hitting anything." You can get a good needle and still hit terrain. In this clearance, however, my guess is that 6000 feet was his minimum instrument altitude and you were good to go at that altitude. Bob Gardner "Roy Smith" wrote in message ... In article 1076365605.761786@sj-nntpcache-3, "John Harper" wrote: Got an odd clearance the other day, on climbout from Santa Monica (IFR but in perfect VMC): "climb and maintain 6000 when direct Ventura". I took this to mean that someone would later clear me direct VTU, whereupon I would climb. However I never got such a clearance, and later an evidently nervous controller called me, cleared me to 6000', and asked me if I had the terrain in sight (which I did, but it was getting close for IFR though not worrying visually). I suspect you dropped a word (or he did). It sounds like it should have been "climb and maintain 6000. When able, direct Ventura". I would have started a climb to 6000, taken a WAG at the heading to Ventura, turned to that heading, and begun to tune in the VOR (or hit direct on the GPS). Once I had a good signal, I would have tracked it direct. |
#4
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In article ZLUVb.12036$032.41047@attbi_s53,
"Bob Gardner" wrote: I'm going to quibble with Roy just a bit. "When able," in my mind, means "when you can proceed direct without hitting anything." You can get a good needle and still hit terrain. In this clearance, however, my guess is that 6000 feet was his minimum instrument altitude and you were good to go at that altitude. I certainly hope not! If 6000 was the MIA, what was the controller doing issuing a route clearance? If John was on initial climbout, I assume he was on a DP. How can the controller take him off the DP below the MIA? To get what Bob is talking about, I think the clearance needed to be worded something like, "climb and maintain 6000, upon reaching 6000, direct Ventura". On the other hand, if that's what the controller wanted, it would have been simplier (and less confusing) to just issue the altitude, and the direct Ventura once he reached it. Bob Gardner "Roy Smith" wrote in message ... In article 1076365605.761786@sj-nntpcache-3, "John Harper" wrote: Got an odd clearance the other day, on climbout from Santa Monica (IFR but in perfect VMC): "climb and maintain 6000 when direct Ventura". I took this to mean that someone would later clear me direct VTU, whereupon I would climb. However I never got such a clearance, and later an evidently nervous controller called me, cleared me to 6000', and asked me if I had the terrain in sight (which I did, but it was getting close for IFR though not worrying visually). I suspect you dropped a word (or he did). It sounds like it should have been "climb and maintain 6000. When able, direct Ventura". I would have started a climb to 6000, taken a WAG at the heading to Ventura, turned to that heading, and begun to tune in the VOR (or hit direct on the GPS). Once I had a good signal, I would have tracked it direct. |
#5
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this is an extremely important point. Can the group gurus chime in
here to sort it out? Roy thinks "when able direct" implies the controller is assuming responsibility for terrain clearance. bob suggests "when able direct" implies the pilot, not the controller is assuming responsibility for terrain clearance. My experience is with Roy's thoughts. The few times terrain was a factor, the controller said words to the effect as "when clear of terrain, proceed direct XYZ. Stan On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 18:46:30 -0500, Roy Smith wrote: In article ZLUVb.12036$032.41047@attbi_s53, "Bob Gardner" wrote: I'm going to quibble with Roy just a bit. "When able," in my mind, means "when you can proceed direct without hitting anything." You can get a good needle and still hit terrain. In this clearance, however, my guess is that 6000 feet was his minimum instrument altitude and you were good to go at that altitude. I certainly hope not! If 6000 was the MIA, what was the controller doing issuing a route clearance? If John was on initial climbout, I assume he was on a DP. How can the controller take him off the DP below the MIA? To get what Bob is talking about, I think the clearance needed to be worded something like, "climb and maintain 6000, upon reaching 6000, direct Ventura". On the other hand, if that's what the controller wanted, it would have been simplier (and less confusing) to just issue the altitude, and the direct Ventura once he reached it. Bob Gardner "Roy Smith" wrote in message ... In article 1076365605.761786@sj-nntpcache-3, "John Harper" wrote: Got an odd clearance the other day, on climbout from Santa Monica (IFR but in perfect VMC): "climb and maintain 6000 when direct Ventura". I took this to mean that someone would later clear me direct VTU, whereupon I would climb. However I never got such a clearance, and later an evidently nervous controller called me, cleared me to 6000', and asked me if I had the terrain in sight (which I did, but it was getting close for IFR though not worrying visually). I suspect you dropped a word (or he did). It sounds like it should have been "climb and maintain 6000. When able, direct Ventura". I would have started a climb to 6000, taken a WAG at the heading to Ventura, turned to that heading, and begun to tune in the VOR (or hit direct on the GPS). Once I had a good signal, I would have tracked it direct. |
#6
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#7
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I'm going to quibble with Roy just a bit. "When able," in my mind, means "when you can proceed direct without hitting anything." Well, if I"m in the soup, the only way I know I won't hit anything is to trust the controllers. They aren't supposed to vector me into terrain. Now granted I need some situational awareness, but not to the extent that I don't need controllers and the instrument flight rules themselves. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#8
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#9
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"Teacherjh" wrote in message ... Well, if I"m in the soup, the only way I know I won't hit anything is to trust the controllers. They aren't supposed to vector me into terrain. Now granted I need some situational awareness, but not to the extent that I don't need controllers and the instrument flight rules themselves. The only way? What about departure procedures? |
#10
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"Bob Gardner" wrote in message news:ZLUVb.12036$032.41047@attbi_s53... I'm going to quibble with Roy just a bit. "When able," in my mind, means "when you can proceed direct without hitting anything." You can get a good needle and still hit terrain. In this clearance, however, my guess is that 6000 feet was his minimum instrument altitude and you were good to go at that altitude. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary: WHEN ABLE- When used in conjunction with ATC instructions, gives the pilot the latitude to delay compliance until a condition or event has been reconciled. Unlike "pilot discretion," when instructions are prefaced "when able," the pilot is expected to seek the first opportunity to comply. Once a maneuver has been initiated, the pilot is expected to continue until the specifications of the instructions have been met. "When able," should not be used when expeditious compliance is required. |
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