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#1
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Abrupt Controller
Peter Clark wrote:
I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever. Not so. Controllers are still responsible to insure readbacks are correct. That was never changed and never even proposed to be changed. It was widely misreported. Order JO 7110.65S Air Traffic Control Chapter 2. General Control Section 4. Radio and Interphone Communications 2-4-3. PILOT ACKNOWLEDGMENT/READ BACK a. When issuing clearances or instructions ensure acknowledgment by the pilot. NOTE- Pilots may acknowledge clearances, instructions, or other information by using "Wilco," "Roger," "Affirmative," or other words or remarks. REFERENCE- AIM, Para 4-2-3, Contact Procedures. b. If altitude, heading, or other items are read back by the pilot, ensure the read back is correct. If incorrect or incomplete, make corrections as appropriate. |
#2
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Abrupt Controller
On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 15:43:02 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: Peter Clark wrote: I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever. Not so. Controllers are still responsible to insure readbacks are correct. That was never changed and never even proposed to be changed. It was widely misreported. Hm, OK, thanks. What I seem to remember is someone who got violated for doing something that they read back incorrectly and used "but the controller didn't fix the readback" as part of the defense and still had the violation upheld as it wasn't ATC's issue if they didn't correct an incorrect readback. Wouldn't be the first time I misremembered somethin tho. |
#3
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Abrupt Controller
Peter Clark writes:
I seem to recall that ATC isn't responsible for not correcting mis-heard readbacks so don't count on that, ever. If ATC isn't supposed to correct an incorrect readback, why have readbacks? Or is that not what you mean? |
#4
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Abrupt Controller
Kobra writes:
But as I said before, the big issue with me was the way he snapped. I just think he was a young man, given a little authority, probably a junior trainee controller sitting with him, I'm in charge and fear me attitude and probably having a bad day. If he reacts that emotionally to something this trivial, perhaps air traffic control is not the best career choice for him. Angry young males make poor air traffic controllers (in fact, they are bad at just about everything except perhaps bar fights). |
#5
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Abrupt Controller
Anthony, there you go again spouting and pontificating about topics where
you have absolutely no knowedge or experience other than playing your computer game. |
#6
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Abrupt Controller
"Viperdoc" wrote in
: Anthony, there you go again spouting and pontificating about topics where you have absolutely no knowedge or experience other than playing your computer game. One has to wonder how Anthony can even manage to play a computer game! |
#7
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Abrupt Controller
Viperdoc wrote:
Anthony, there you go again spouting and pontificating about topics where you have absolutely no knowedge or experience other than playing your computer game. And, he also plays with himself. |
#8
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Abrupt Controller
"Kobra" wrote in message
. .. Where was your readback? I read it back and just like me he heard what his brain expected to hear: 'unable' when I actually said 'when able' . I wish I thought of that while I was being reprimanded. I was just too busy flying, being embarrassed and head scratching trying to figure out how this whole misunderstanding took place. But as I said before, the big issue with me was the way he snapped. I just think he was a young man, given a little authority, probably a junior trainee controller sitting with him, I'm in charge and fear me attitude and probably having a bad day. Kobra Yeah, he got the phraseology bass-ackward. Yeah, he gave you a ration you probably didn't have coming. Maybe he was having a bad day. Maybe he just got told he's going to the sandbox for another 13 months; for his second or third time. Maybe he was a trainee trying to impress his trainer with his "control." Maybe a lot of things. If anyone else in the facility heard the exchange he's likely already gotten some wall-to-wall counseling. **** happens :-/ Be the adult and drive on. |
#9
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Abrupt Controller
Mxsmanic wrote in
: Kobra writes: Ok so...I took-off on an IFR flight plan and I had just leveled off at 4000' north bound for their fix. Next they gave me a vector of 090. After a minute or so I asked the controller, "McGuire Approach, Cardinal 07G, any chance direct Smyrna (ENO)?" The response I got was, "07G direct Smyrna unable." Ok...that would be fine if that was what my busy brain heard, but I did not hear it that way...my brain heard, "07G direct Smyrna 'when able'." Shortly after I turned direct for ENO I got a VERY large lecture with unneeded and unnecessary attitude. "07G I TOLD YOU STAY 090. CAN'T YOU LISTEN OR UNDERSTAND ATC INSTRUCTIONS? WHEN I GIVE YOU A VECTOR YOU ARE TO FOLLOW IT EXACTLY AND CAREFULLY!!" When I explained to him that I heard him say, "...direct ENO when able." he became even more belligerent. "I DID *NOT* SAY THAT!! YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO ATC INSTRUCTION MORE CAREFULLY AND FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTION EXACTLY." Where was your readback? Granted I heard him wrong and I made a mistake. But I think the controller needs to take some responsibility for using confusing verbiage and surely it was unprofessional to lay me out like that. Had you read back the instructions, the chances of any confusion would have been greatly reduced. You should always read things back. This reminds me of how a mid-air occurred in LA because a new controller took time to admonish a GA pilot for a couple minutes while a commercial plane and a Piper collided right in front of him on his screen. When was this? So my question to Steve McNicoll is...is that standard verbiage to say, "...direct Smyrna 'unable'??. 'cause I'm here to tell ya that, that can be EASILY confused with 'direct Smyrna 'when able'. What's your thoughts on this and did he use proper language or did he just use poor phraseology? If you read back "when able" after he says "unable," he'll probably catch it and correct you. If you don't read anything back, you never know. Anthony, you don't know **** from Shinola about using an AM radio, you ****ing moron. A total waste of life. |
#10
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Abrupt Controller
Kobra wrote:
Flyers, I'll run this scenario past the group and see what you all think and is if Mr. McNicoll can shed some light as well. First, some quick background. At my airport if you are IFR and are heading, say, southwest (as I was) it's too bad...you're clearance is to send you 22 miles north to a fix and then 15 mile east to another fix and then they will turn you on course. Usually, if asked, you can get direct on course shortly after take-off. If traffic permits they will clear you to go direct to your first filed fix on course. Ok so...I took-off on an IFR flight plan and I had just leveled off at 4000' north bound for their fix. Next they gave me a vector of 090. After a minute or so I asked the controller, "McGuire Approach, Cardinal 07G, any chance direct Smyrna (ENO)?" The response I got was, "07G direct Smyrna unable." Ok...that would be fine if that was what my busy brain heard, but I did not hear it that way...my brain heard, "07G direct Smyrna 'when able'." Shortly after I turned direct for ENO I got a VERY large lecture with unneeded and unnecessary attitude. "07G I TOLD YOU STAY 090. CAN'T YOU LISTEN OR UNDERSTAND ATC INSTRUCTIONS? WHEN I GIVE YOU A VECTOR YOU ARE TO FOLLOW IT EXACTLY AND CAREFULLY!!" When I explained to him that I heard him say, "...direct ENO when able." he became even more belligerent. "I DID *NOT* SAY THAT!! YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO ATC INSTRUCTION MORE CAREFULLY AND FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTION EXACTLY." Whoa! Like I needed to know any of that and like anyone needs to be yelled at over the airwaves with an attitude. This controller was a young military male for what any of that is worth. Granted I heard him wrong and I made a mistake. But I think the controller needs to take some responsibility for using confusing verbiage and surely it was unprofessional to lay me out like that. This reminds me of how a mid-air occurred in LA because a new controller took time to admonish a GA pilot for a couple minutes while a commercial plane and a Piper collided right in front of him on his screen. So my question to Steve McNicoll is...is that standard verbiage to say, "...direct Smyrna 'unable'??. 'cause I'm here to tell ya that, that can be EASILY confused with 'direct Smyrna 'when able'. What's your thoughts on this and did he use proper language or did he just use poor phraseology? Bad phraseology on the part of the controller. When denying a pilot's request the transmission is supposed to begin with "unable". When approving a pilot's request it's supposed to end with "approved" or just "approved as requested". Order JO 7110.65S Air Traffic Control Chapter 2. General Control Section 1. General 2-1-18. OPERATIONAL REQUESTS Respond to a request from another controller, a pilot or vehicle operator by one of the following verbal means: a. Restate the request in complete or abbreviated terms followed by the word "APPROVED." The phraseology "APPROVED AS REQUESTED" may be substituted in lieu of a lengthy readback. PHRASEOLOGY- (Requested operation) APPROVED. or APPROVED AS REQUESTED. b. State restrictions followed by the word "APPROVED." PHRASEOLOGY- (Restriction and/or additional instructions, requested operation) APPROVED. c. State the word "UNABLE" and, time permitting, a reason. PHRASEOLOGY- UNABLE (requested operation). and when necessary, (reason and/or additional instructions.) d. State the words "STAND BY." NOTE- "STAND BY" is not an approval or denial. The controller acknowledges the request and will respond at a later time. REFERENCE- FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2-1-21, Traffic Advisories. FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4-2-5, Route or Altitude Amendments. FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7-9-3, Methods. |
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