Airlines Cut Minimum Pilot Experience to 500 hours and Below

More Evidence of the Pilot Shortage

PILOT SHORTAGE HITS REGIONALS
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#196655)
American Eagle, the regional subsidiary of American Airlines, has
trimmed flights from its winter schedule in part because it
doesn't have enough pilots. "It's one of several reasons, but that
does play into it," Eagle spokeswoman Andrea Huguely told the Fort
Worth Star-Telegram
(http://www.star-telegram.com/busines...y/322928.html). "The
pilots are crucial, and without them, the planes don't fly." Eagle
is one of several airlines that has cut minimum experience
requirements by two-thirds to 500 hours to attract more recruits.
According to the newspaper, Trans States Airlines, which operates
a regional service for American under the name American
Connection, briefly lowered its experience requirement to 250
hours during the summer. Although no one seems to deny the value
of experience, industry spokesmen contacted by the newspaper
seemed to agree that safety is not being seriously compromised.


http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/...20News/852841/
The carriers have reduced required flight hours for job applicants
by as much as two-thirds, and in a few cases have hired pilots
with the minimum experience required by the Federal Aviation
Administration for a pilot's license. ...

"The rush to push pilots through training and into the cockpits
raises obvious safety concerns," said John Prater, a veteran
Continental Airlines pilot and president of the Air Line Pilots
Association. ...

"New pilots today are going straight into the [co-pilot's] seat,
and moving into the [captain's] seat in a hurry," he said. "And
they're doing it in airplanes that are great machines but can be
unforgiving." ...

For example, a starting pilot at Trans States, a regional airline
that flies for American under the name American Connection, earns
$22 a flight hour, with 74 hours guaranteed a month, according to
AirlinePilotCentral.com, which tracks pilot salaries. That
translates to an annual starting salary of $19,500. A pilot flying
1,000 hours a year -- the most allowed under federal rules --
would earn about $22,000. ...

Airlines are aggressively recruiting on college campuses and
offering signing bonuses to new hires who complete their training.

Yeah, and what do many non-pilots don't fully understand is that pilots get
paid for the hours they fly...not for the hours they work. In an 8 hour
workday they may only get 4 hours of flight pay. Flight planning,
preflight, postflight, etc are not paid hours of work. $22.00/hour pay
rate (flight time) can translate to $11.00 an hour for actual working time.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

More Evidence of the Pilot Shortage

PILOT SHORTAGE HITS REGIONALS
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#196655)
American Eagle, the regional subsidiary of American Airlines, has
trimmed flights from its winter schedule in part because it
doesn't have enough pilots. "It's one of several reasons, but that
does play into it," Eagle spokeswoman Andrea Huguely told the Fort
Worth Star-Telegram
(http://www.star-telegram.com/busines...y/322928.html). "The
pilots are crucial, and without them, the planes don't fly." Eagle
is one of several airlines that has cut minimum experience
requirements by two-thirds to 500 hours to attract more recruits.
According to the newspaper, Trans States Airlines, which operates
a regional service for American under the name American
Connection, briefly lowered its experience requirement to 250
hours during the summer. Although no one seems to deny the value
of experience, industry spokesmen contacted by the newspaper
seemed to agree that safety is not being seriously compromised.


http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/...20News/852841/
The carriers have reduced required flight hours for job applicants
by as much as two-thirds, and in a few cases have hired pilots
with the minimum experience required by the Federal Aviation
Administration for a pilot's license. ...

"The rush to push pilots through training and into the cockpits
raises obvious safety concerns," said John Prater, a veteran
Continental Airlines pilot and president of the Air Line Pilots
Association. ...

"New pilots today are going straight into the [co-pilot's] seat,
and moving into the [captain's] seat in a hurry," he said. "And
they're doing it in airplanes that are great machines but can be
unforgiving." ...

For example, a starting pilot at Trans States, a regional airline
that flies for American under the name American Connection, earns
$22 a flight hour, with 74 hours guaranteed a month, according to
AirlinePilotCentral.com, which tracks pilot salaries. That
translates to an annual starting salary of $19,500. A pilot flying
1,000 hours a year -- the most allowed under federal rules --
would earn about $22,000. ...

Airlines are aggressively recruiting on college campuses and
offering signing bonuses to new hires who complete their training.

"Panic" wrote in message
...
Yeah, and what do many non-pilots don't fully understand is that pilots
get paid for the hours they fly...not for the hours they work. In an 8
hour workday they may only get 4 hours of flight pay. Flight planning,
preflight, postflight, etc are not paid hours of work. $22.00/hour pay
rate (flight time) can translate to $11.00 an hour for actual working
time.

I'm curious as to why the airline pilots haven't all gone on strike to
demand better pay. Clearly, they can't be easily replaced or the airlines
wouldn't be scraping the bottom of the barrel for new hires. I learned
about supply/demand in Economics 101 but I'm sure the airline executives
know exactly what they're doing.

I'm sorry, but, there's a Burgerville down the road that pays better than
$11/hr, and a car dealership that pays better too; why would I invest tens
of thousands of dollars, submit myself to annual medical exams, corporate
nonsense (such as pilot salary) and inherent job insecurity, and then
separate myself from my family for less than what the guy flipping burgers
or selling Toyotas down the street makes?

Here's one otherwise-interested commercial pilot that the airlines won't get
for less than the $42,000 I could make resetting people's
e-mail and router passwords from the safety of an air-conditioned office.

-c

On Nov 26, 9:38 am, "Gatt" wrote:
"Panic" wrote in message

...

Yeah, and what do many non-pilots don't fully understand is that pilots
get paid for the hours they fly...not for the hours they work. In an 8
hour workday they may only get 4 hours of flight pay. Flight planning,
preflight, postflight, etc are not paid hours of work. $22.00/hour pay
rate (flight time) can translate to $11.00 an hour for actual working
time.

I'm curious as to why the airline pilots haven't all gone on strike to
demand better pay. Clearly, they can't be easily replaced or the airlines
wouldn't be scraping the bottom of the barrel for new hires. I learned
about supply/demand in Economics 101 but I'm sure the airline executives
know exactly what they're doing.

First, you can only strike if you are part of a union. Federal laws
give unions protections that allow them to gain excess benefits,
beyond what supply and demand allow for. In short, when a union is
involved you do not have a free market (the employeer has his hands
tied and his nuts in a vice).

Second, even a union (like a parasite) cannot kill its host. Most
airlines are on the edge of bankruptcy (if not already in bankruptcy)
so asking for more money would just kill the host. Today competition
in the market has made margins slim in the industry and the survivors
are those that can produce their profit for the lowest cost
(Southwest, Jetblue, etc). Asking your airline to increase its cost
structure to increase your pay can literally put it out of business in
today's market.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
news:8fe9b408-db41-494c-8015-

Clearly, they can't be easily replaced or the airlines wouldn't be
scraping the bottom of the barrel for new hires. I learned
about supply/demand in Economics 101 but I'm sure the airline executives
know exactly what they're doing.

First, you can only strike if you are part of a union. Federal laws give
unions protections that allow them to gain excess benefits,
beyond what supply and demand allow for. In short, when a union is
involved you do not have a free market (the employeer has his hands tied
and his nuts in a vice).

Well, having worked as a system administrator and seen countless jobs
shipped over to Bumfkistan, I'm not so interested in employers' interest
anymore. It is quite literally us and them. You do what the desk-pilot
with the MBA says, when they say, for how much they say, for as how long
they say, and it doesn't matter how well you do it because as soon as they
can hire somebody offshore to do it for less, your ass is out the door.

Most airlines are on the edge of bankruptcy (if not already in bankruptcy)
so asking for more money would just kill the host.

They should fire an executive and hire a couple of dozen pilots with the
money.

Asking your airline to increase its cost structure to increase your pay
can literally put it out of business in
today's market.

What do you suppose their HR, marketing and IT people make? I'd bet that
their 20-year-old Help Desk techs make more than starting pilots. All kinds
of people talk about it and excuse the behavior but the reality is that the
airlines are desperate for pilots; dangerously so, according to the media
and inevitable consumer opinion. But, hey, when an engine fails on a 737,
maybe they can call the Help Desk.

America reaps, America sows. Consistently, America makes excuses for its
backwardass business logic. (In 1980 few people would have bought anything
"Made in the U.S.S.R." Now we're having to check to make sure the crap the
rival superpower we helped build isn't feeding our kids lead paint.

-c

On Nov 26, 10:50 am, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

First, you can only strike if you are part of a union. Federal laws
give unions protections that allow them to gain excess benefits,
beyond what supply and demand allow for. In short, when a union is
involved you do not have a free market (the employeer has his hands
tied and his nuts in a vice).

Robert, this post (Just like many of your other posts) shows that you
dont really have a grasp of the situation. If you dont like organized
labor thats fine, but you are making yourself look silly by painting
things with a broad brush.

Second, even a union (like a parasite) cannot kill its host. Most
airlines are on the edge of bankruptcy (if not already in bankruptcy)
so asking for more money would just kill the host. Today competition
in the market has made margins slim in the industry and the survivors
are those that can produce their profit for the lowest cost
(Southwest, Jetblue, etc). Asking your airline to increase its cost
structure to increase your pay can literally put it out of business in
today's market.

Where did you come up with this. Which airlines are on the brink ?
With the exeption of Doug Parker and USAirways the airlines have been
doing quite well. Pick up a newspaper once in awhile .
F Baum

-Robert- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"F. Baum" wrote in message news:f721a757-cfe1-4c34-aef2-

Where did you come up with this. Which airlines are on the brink ?
With the exeption of Doug Parker and USAirways the airlines have been
doing quite well. Pick up a newspaper once in awhile .

Hey, all, just FYI. My wife and I got round-trip UAL tickets to New Orleans
for Mardi Gras for $210 each including taxes last month. In 1997 they were
something like $1,200. I see that they're up to $500-something right now.

Same ol' same ol'. 'Course, last year it took us 45 minutes to fly to NOLA
from Houston and 55 minutes for the building jockey to hook the jetway up to
the airplane so everybody could exit. (The pilot said quipped through the
intercom, "those jetways are complicated devices." I'd bet anything the guy
banging the jetway against the fuselage was making more than the pilot,
since the pilot wasn't making anything while he was sitting there waiting
for the professionals figure out how to open the door.)

-c

On Nov 26, 11:03 am, "F. Baum" wrote:
On Nov 26, 10:50 am, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:



First, you can only strike if you are part of a union. Federal laws
give unions protections that allow them to gain excess benefits,
beyond what supply and demand allow for. In short, when a union is
involved you do not have a free market (the employeer has his hands
tied and his nuts in a vice).

Robert, this post (Just like many of your other posts) shows that you
dont really have a grasp of the situation. If you dont like organized
labor thats fine, but you are making yourself look silly by painting
things with a broad brush.

In the U.S. all labor unions are exempt from anti-trust laws, so yes
the brush if broad. If employers all tried to get together and set
saleries they would end up in jail pretty quick. The same bahavior is
legal for unions. When a union decides to strike it has no basis in
the current market value of the labor, it is only based on who can
squeeze who's balls the most. Since labor can strike as long as they
want and the employers can't replace them (thereby prooving the labor
value in the market) guess who has the unfair advantage. Nothing free
market about it. If you think there is anything free market about it
you should say so intstead of making vague statements of "you don't
really have a grasp on the situation".
I've worked in the free market (non-union) all my life and I've never
experienced the horror that unions warn us about. I don't get abused
by my employer, I don't get offered below market saleries (which would
be fooling of a company).
If union supporters had the opportunity to run a bussiness for just 6
months they would change their minds. The idea that you can get
unlimited employees of any skill level for nearly free (if it were not
for unions and local laws) is such a fatasy. Why do you think
McDonalds pays above minimum wage, its not because they are just being
nice. Its because there is a market for labor and emploers must pay
what is necessary for people to want to do the job. Why did we just
pay $80K/year for our most recent SA, its not because we were just
being charitable to him. In your world we could just pay him minimum
wage and he'd be happy about it, but that's because union leaders
don't understand the demand side of the labor market.

-Robert, MBA

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:50:24 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote in
:

In short, when a union is
involved you do not have a free market (the employeer has his hands
tied and his nuts in a vice).

And without a union, employees are in a similar situation.

On Nov 26, 11:34 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:50:24 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote in
:

In short, when a union is
involved you do not have a free market (the employeer has his hands
tied and his nuts in a vice).

And without a union, employees are in a similar situation.

Again that is the myth that labor tries to put out there. However, it
is based on the assumed belief that labor has no intrinsic market
value, only the value that organized labor can get for it. In truth
companies pay lots of money to recruiters and HR departments to seek
out employees. In truth the majority of American's do not work under a
collective bargaining unit but still are paid above minimum wage. The
reason is that there is a market for their labor and employers must
either pay it or do without. The fear of "the sky is falling" that
oraganized labor has put out there hasn't happened. In most cases non-
union employees make more than organized employees. The only one
making money off the unions are the fat cats that run the unions.

-Robert