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Procedure Turn



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 16th 04, 02:03 AM
Bravo8500
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Default Procedure Turn

I'm pretty sure this question has been asked, but I can't seem to find
it. My question deals with a typical approach with a procedure turn
before the FAF, could be an NDB, VOR, GPS, etc. I know what the
purposes are. 1) Provide course reversal and 2) allow altitude loss
from the arrival altitude to the procedure turn altitude. My question
is, am I expected to make the turn it if I'm already established on
the inbound course and am already at the correct altitude.

I don't think the AIM is very clear.


From the following paragraph, I read that it is ...

5-4-8. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to
perform a course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an
intermediate or final approach course. The procedure turn or hold in
lieu of procedure turn is a required maneuver.

However, from this entry a few lines down, I wonder ...
b. Limitations on Procedure Turns.
....
2. When a teardrop procedure turn is depicted and a course reversal is
required, this type turn must be executed.


"When a course reversal is required" ??? And even in the first
paragraph it says "when it is necessary to perform a course reversal"

I'm thinking I don't have to. I know this situation doesn't happen
that often but when it does, I don't really have the answer, I suppose
I would have to ask the controller.

I appreciate your input.
  #2  
Old April 16th 04, 03:28 AM
Brad Z
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Default

This issue comes up from time to time. The assumption here is that you are
not being provied vectors for the approach. The official rule is that
unless there is a note allowing the exception of a PT (i.e. 'NoPT'), a
procedure turn is required. So yes, that means a turn in a bold hold or
backtracking out on the approach course for a course reversal.

"Bravo8500" wrote in message
om...
I'm pretty sure this question has been asked, but I can't seem to find
it. My question deals with a typical approach with a procedure turn
before the FAF, could be an NDB, VOR, GPS, etc. I know what the
purposes are. 1) Provide course reversal and 2) allow altitude loss
from the arrival altitude to the procedure turn altitude. My question
is, am I expected to make the turn it if I'm already established on
the inbound course and am already at the correct altitude.

I don't think the AIM is very clear.


From the following paragraph, I read that it is ...

5-4-8. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to
perform a course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an
intermediate or final approach course. The procedure turn or hold in
lieu of procedure turn is a required maneuver.

However, from this entry a few lines down, I wonder ...
b. Limitations on Procedure Turns.
...
2. When a teardrop procedure turn is depicted and a course reversal is
required, this type turn must be executed.


"When a course reversal is required" ??? And even in the first
paragraph it says "when it is necessary to perform a course reversal"

I'm thinking I don't have to. I know this situation doesn't happen
that often but when it does, I don't really have the answer, I suppose
I would have to ask the controller.

I appreciate your input.



  #3  
Old April 16th 04, 03:35 AM
Roy Smith
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Default

"Brad Z" wrote:
This issue comes up from time to time. The assumption here is that you are
not being provied vectors for the approach. The official rule is that
unless there is a note allowing the exception of a PT (i.e. 'NoPT'), a
procedure turn is required. So yes, that means a turn in a bold hold or
backtracking out on the approach course for a course reversal.


Next question. Does anybody actually do this? Assuming that you were
already established on the FAC and didn't need to lose any altitude,
does anybody actually do a PT just because a literal reading of the regs
says you're supposed to?
  #4  
Old April 16th 04, 03:55 AM
Brad Z
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Default

Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Next question. Does anybody actually do this? Assuming that you were
already established on the FAC and didn't need to lose any altitude,
does anybody actually do a PT just because a literal reading of the regs
says you're supposed to?


How many people run red lights at 3:00am or break the 55mph speed limit?

Seriously though, I don't really know. Some will also suggest that it
doesn't matter if you are below radar coverage because they can't see you.


  #5  
Old April 16th 04, 03:59 AM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default


"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:OWHfc.49669$rg5.131276@attbi_s52...

Seriously though, I don't really know. Some will also suggest that
it doesn't matter if you are below radar coverage because they
can't see you.


What would they do if you were above radar coverage and they did see you?


  #6  
Old April 16th 04, 04:06 AM
Brad Z
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Posts: n/a
Default

I don't know. Ask them.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:OWHfc.49669$rg5.131276@attbi_s52...

Seriously though, I don't really know. Some will also suggest that
it doesn't matter if you are below radar coverage because they
can't see you.


What would they do if you were above radar coverage and they did see you?




  #7  
Old April 16th 04, 04:18 AM
Andrew Sarangan
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Posts: n/a
Default

Is there any hazard in failing to do a PT when one is depicted?



"Brad Z" wrote in
news:l5Ifc.426$gL1.17908@attbi_s54:

I don't know. Ask them.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:OWHfc.49669$rg5.131276@attbi_s52...

Seriously though, I don't really know. Some will also suggest that
it doesn't matter if you are below radar coverage because they
can't see you.


What would they do if you were above radar coverage and they did see
you?





  #8  
Old April 16th 04, 04:22 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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Posts: n/a
Default

On 15 Apr 2004 18:03:36 -0700, (Bravo8500) wrote:

I'm pretty sure this question has been asked, but I can't seem to find
it. My question deals with a typical approach with a procedure turn
before the FAF, could be an NDB, VOR, GPS, etc. I know what the
purposes are. 1) Provide course reversal and 2) allow altitude loss
from the arrival altitude to the procedure turn altitude. My question
is, am I expected to make the turn it if I'm already established on
the inbound course and am already at the correct altitude.

I don't think the AIM is very clear.


I have found in dealing with these kinds of questions that reference to a
specific approach and a specific situation leads to a clearer understanding
of the issues.

This question has been discussed a number of times but the answer to your
specific question is "it depends". The reason the answer is vague is
because you have not given enough information in your generic type
question.

One important item that you left out, in trying to come up with your
example, is the manner in which you became "established on the inbound
course" and "at the correct altitude".

There are a number of ways that can happen that would preclude you from
executing a charted procedure turn. There are ways you can get to that
point only by (you or ATC) violating some other regulation or procedure,
making the question essentially irrelevant. Then there are some procedures
that are improperly charted.

So, in general, if you've arrived at the FAF on course and on altitude, you
should have arrived there either via a NoPT routing or via radar vectors to
final. So in those instances you may NOT execute a procedure turn without
permission from ATC.

But if you are not on radar VTF, and not arriving via a NoPT route, (and
not doing timed approaches), then you will need to execute the procedure
turn.

I suppose I would have to ask the controller.


So far as asking the controller, they will probably "let you do" most
anything you request, so long as it does not violate the regulations and
procedures under which *they* operate. But be aware that if what you do is
not in accord with the expectations of the approach designer, you may be
cutting your safety margin to unacceptable levels.

Do you have a specific situation and approach about which you are
concerned?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #9  
Old April 16th 04, 06:41 AM
Brad Z
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Posts: n/a
Default

To generically answer your question, yes. Instrument procedures are
designed with specific considerations that we as pilots may not be privy to.
These may include terrain, navaid limitations, proximity to approaches or
DPs to/from other airports, etc.

To answer your question in context of the original poster's question,
probably not. However, nothing in part 91 or the AIM allows pilots to skip
charted PT's that are otherwise required. Basically, I don't have a problem
with it, but the Feds might, especially if there's an accident. And as
another poster mentioned, authorization from ATC in a non-vector scenario
does not grant permission to deviate from the charted procedure, even if it
makes life easier for both parties.

Is there any hazard in flying an airplane IFR with a VOR check that is 33
days old?



"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 158...
Is there any hazard in failing to do a PT when one is depicted?



"Brad Z" wrote in
news:l5Ifc.426$gL1.17908@attbi_s54:

I don't know. Ask them.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news

"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:OWHfc.49669$rg5.131276@attbi_s52...

Seriously though, I don't really know. Some will also suggest that
it doesn't matter if you are below radar coverage because they
can't see you.


What would they do if you were above radar coverage and they did see
you?







  #10  
Old April 16th 04, 12:18 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Bravo8500" wrote in message
om...

I'm pretty sure this question has been asked, but I can't seem to find
it. My question deals with a typical approach with a procedure turn
before the FAF, could be an NDB, VOR, GPS, etc. I know what the
purposes are. 1) Provide course reversal and 2) allow altitude loss
from the arrival altitude to the procedure turn altitude. My question
is, am I expected to make the turn it if I'm already established on
the inbound course and am already at the correct altitude.


How did you come to be established on the inbound course at the correct
altitude?


 




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