Finally: The right-sized Thielert

Thielert has announced a diesel engine in the 230-HP-range, covering
the gap between the existing 135- and 350-HP models. Great news, IMHO,
since this is the kind of power many of the planes we fly need. First
target for certification seems to be the 182. Time frame is 2007. Nice!


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

It would be interested to see what their cost would
be for an engine that was certified to replace the 250HP
Lycoming IO-540C4B5 engines on my Aztec. I'd
guess that even at engine overhaul time, econmics
would be vastly in favor of overhauling the old engines
as compared to replacing them with diesels.

Ronnie

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Thielert has announced a diesel engine in the 230-HP-range, covering
the gap between the existing 135- and 350-HP models. Great news, IMHO,
since this is the kind of power many of the planes we fly need. First
target for certification seems to be the 182. Time frame is 2007. Nice!


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Ronnie wrote:
It would be interested to see what their cost would
be for an engine that was certified to replace the 250HP
Lycoming IO-540C4B5 engines on my Aztec. I'd
guess that even at engine overhaul time, econmics
would be vastly in favor of overhauling the old engines
as compared to replacing them with diesels.

Ronnie

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Thielert has announced a diesel engine in the 230-HP-range, covering
the gap between the existing 135- and 350-HP models. Great news, IMHO,
since this is the kind of power many of the planes we fly need. First
target for certification seems to be the 182. Time frame is 2007. Nice!


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

My thought is it is going to depend on a lot of factors.

Will the cost of swapping a gas engine for a diesel come down as
they become (if it happens) more common?

How will the life-cycle costs compare? Supposedly the diesels require
less maintenance over their life. Whether that is really true or
not remains to be seen. Right now about the only thing for sure is you
don't have to replace spark plugs.

What is going to happen to fuel costs? Right now Jet A is $.87/gal
cheaper at my local FBO. Will this spread increase or decrease?

Will a FADEC diesel further reduce the fuel costs by keeping everything
optimal?

No matter what happens with the above, putting a different engine
in will cost more than putting in a new engine of the same type.
How long do you expect to keep the airplane and how many engines
do you expect to replace/overhaul during that time?

etc.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

The biggest cost item is what will the insurance companies consider to
be the likely product liability costs of this new powerplant? Remember
the liability tail is still 18 years, and even this is reset if parts
are replaced. Insurance companies are pretty conservative on
innovation, and for good reasons.

My read on it is that over a long term, the US light aircraft industry
is destined to go overseas where the liability costs of innovation are
less. We'll still have new aircraft (occasionally) but without
additional tort reform in the US, the imported costs will continue to
rise.

Ronnie,

I'd
guess that even at engine overhaul time, econmics
would be vastly in favor of overhauling the old engines
as compared to replacing them with diesels.


Of course it will be more expensive. After all, you're getting a brand
new engine. Apart from that, a lot depends. The way Thielert does it
here, they guarantee you 2400 hours (or, I think, 12 years). Thus, you
absolutely truly know from the start what one of those hours will cost
engine-wise: The cost of the engine divided by 2400. That's it, period.
If it breaks before that, you'll get a new one prorated. So, if you fly
200 hours per year, your cost savings could be substantial. Also it
uses a lot less fuel. If you fly a lot, that will pay of sooner.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Diesel actually has a substantial advande in fuel economy. The Tielert
diesel claims to have a BSFC of 0.33lb/HP-hr, far better than the
gasoline engines that're usually at 0.40-0.45 range. If you think this
is not significant, consider that diesel weighs more per gallon than
avgas, and we buy fuel in volume, not weight. So a 25% improvement of
BSFC by going diesel will actually result in 28% of saving in the
volume (gallon) of fuel burn. If the cost of diesel per gallons is 20%
lower than avgas, the total fuel cost saving is going to be about 34%
in dollar amount. That's very significant over the life time of an
engine.


wrote:

What is going to happen to fuel costs? Right now Jet A is $.87/gal
cheaper at my local FBO. Will this spread increase or decrease?

Will a FADEC diesel further reduce the fuel costs by keeping everything
optimal?

I thought the fuel for these aviation diesel engine
was Jet A. Is the data below for Jet A or for
diesel fuel?

How does Jet A compare to gasoline?

Ronnie

"M" wrote in message
ps.com...

Diesel actually has a substantial advande in fuel economy. The Tielert
diesel claims to have a BSFC of 0.33lb/HP-hr, far better than the
gasoline engines that're usually at 0.40-0.45 range. If you think this
is not significant, consider that diesel weighs more per gallon than
avgas, and we buy fuel in volume, not weight. So a 25% improvement of
BSFC by going diesel will actually result in 28% of saving in the
volume (gallon) of fuel burn. If the cost of diesel per gallons is 20%
lower than avgas, the total fuel cost saving is going to be about 34%
in dollar amount. That's very significant over the life time of an
engine.


wrote:

What is going to happen to fuel costs? Right now Jet A is $.87/gal
cheaper at my local FBO. Will this spread increase or decrease?

Will a FADEC diesel further reduce the fuel costs by keeping everything
optimal?

I was using the term diesel fuel in a generic sense. Yes the math is
based on Jet A because it's 6.84lb/gal compared with 6lb/gal of avgas.

Ronnie wrote:
I thought the fuel for these aviation diesel engine
was Jet A. Is the data below for Jet A or for
diesel fuel?

How does Jet A compare to gasoline?

Jet A is more expensive out our local pumps than 100LL but about 80cents.
BT

"M" wrote in message
ps.com...

Diesel actually has a substantial advande in fuel economy. The Tielert
diesel claims to have a BSFC of 0.33lb/HP-hr, far better than the
gasoline engines that're usually at 0.40-0.45 range. If you think this
is not significant, consider that diesel weighs more per gallon than
avgas, and we buy fuel in volume, not weight. So a 25% improvement of
BSFC by going diesel will actually result in 28% of saving in the
volume (gallon) of fuel burn. If the cost of diesel per gallons is 20%
lower than avgas, the total fuel cost saving is going to be about 34%
in dollar amount. That's very significant over the life time of an
engine.


wrote:

What is going to happen to fuel costs? Right now Jet A is $.87/gal
cheaper at my local FBO. Will this spread increase or decrease?

Will a FADEC diesel further reduce the fuel costs by keeping everything
optimal?

I wonder whether its constant speed or constant pitch. I also wonder how
much useful load it eats up.


"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Thielert has announced a diesel engine in the 230-HP-range, covering
the gap between the existing 135- and 350-HP models. Great news, IMHO,
since this is the kind of power many of the planes we fly need. First
target for certification seems to be the 182. Time frame is 2007. Nice!


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)