In wave, in blue hole at cloud level, hole closes, in IMC, then what?

Peter Garrison in May's Flying discusses
a PC-12 spiral to breakup. The pilot was
instrument rated and current, but was
caught out by an autopilot dropout.

"Any airplane will enter a spiral dive... if
no attempt is made to control it. Some
may fly hands-off for many minutes in
smooth air, but if they are disturbed by a
gust or are... [already] banked... they will
inevitably bank more and more steeply..."

So while a benign spiral might work in
smooth air, it likely won't work for long in
rotor.

Air brakes, gear and landing flaps may
delay the inevitable until you get out of
cloud and hopefully are able to manage
the recovery within limits. However the
maximum speed for landing flap setting
can be considerably lower than VNE.

Garrison goes on to discuss the serious
challenge in recovery from a high speed
spiral.

Dear Surge, what attitude app are you using on you Samsung?


The attitude app running on my Samsung N7100 (Note 2) doesn't reboot when it loses a GPS lock. In fact it doesn't use GPS at all but rather an inertial platform based on the 3-axis accelerometer, 3-axis gyroscope and 3-axis magnetometer built into the phone. I don't rely on it when flying but it's surprisingly accurate and reliable and doesn't display any drift or even tumbling at odd attitudes.

I find it really hard to believe that a mass produced consumer smartphone can turn out to be more reliable than an instrument specifically created for the aviation market.

Please name and shame the instruments you're referring to so that I can avoid them.

Many posters have mentioned opening the spoilers.
For many modern gliders, this reduces the allowable G considerably.
JAR-22 only requires g-limits of -0 to +3.5 with spoilers open,
which is what the machine I currently fly permits.
Going below 0 G in rotor would hardly be surprising;
if dirt comes off the floor you are now beyond limits...
And when you drift back of lift in cloud, you'll likely find rotor.

Be careful out there,
Best Regards, Dave

On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 5:59:56 PM UTC-4, Dave Nadler wrote:
Many posters have mentioned opening the spoilers.
For many modern gliders, this reduces the allowable G considerably.
JAR-22 only requires g-limits of -0 to +3.5 with spoilers open,
which is what the machine I currently fly permits.
Going below 0 G in rotor would hardly be surprising;
if dirt comes off the floor you are now beyond limits...
And when you drift back of lift in cloud, you'll likely find rotor.

Be careful out there,
Best Regards, Dave

I go back to my previous post of "kissing your A$$ goodbye"......

In general.... "worst comes to worst"...... "Drag is your friend"..... it extends the time before "you're wishing for a chute"....... and "crunched glass"......

Sailplanes can be replaced, people can't.

I had other comments, but deleted before this post........

Back to the OPs comment about being trimmed and climbing for altitude when you go IMC, my suggestion is stay slow, get draggy, and do NOT let go of the controls. Soon as you do that, you are merely a passenger. Use every bit of information available to you. Make note of your current heading (you should have a rough idea of where you were pointing when you lost sight of the ground). GPS is best for this, in my opinion, even if going backwards over the ground. If it starts to change, make a small, coordinated correction to stop it. If you were going backwards, it will increase the rate of turn, so be aware of ground track at all times. Hold an arm out straight in front of you to feel G load if you don't have a g meter available. This is a situation in which speed kills, so don't get too much of it. Spiral will have increasing speed and g load. If you made an input and it got worse, undo that and make one the other way.

If you are fast when it becomes IMC, try to get slow and draggy. Changing hands on the stick to lower the gear is probably not a good idea. The flying hand knows where the stick is. Again, speed kills in this situation. And again, don't become a passenger by letting go of the stick. Keep your focus on useful things in the cockpit. Airspeed, yaw string (well, not quite in the cockpit), anything that gives an indication of current direction of travel and also possible groundspeed with that. As Dave Nadler pointed out, spoilers out means less g load to break the plane. Lower speed means you can put less G on the plane before it stalls. Do everything you can to keep slow but controllable. Avoid the temptation to try and get speed to "dive out the bottom". Your goal is to come out in one piece. Whether that be out the side, bottom, or top. Easiest way to stay in one piece is to stay slow.

Read Kempton Izuno's article about his inadvertent cloud encounter. Listen to what is happening. Paying close attention to all the little things is what, I think, saved Kemp during his encounter.

My escape involved slowing from 80 or so indicated 50 knots (at about 16,000 feet over Eastern Colorado) while cranking the flaps down 90 degrees. I eased the stick back to slow down while cranking on the flaps, then eased it forward to hold the speed I wanted. Don't do anything abruptly. When I still didn't come out, I figured out I was in a right turn when I noticed the GPS Nav display heading was increasing. I knew which side of the cloud I had been running towards, so when heading was just short of that, I made a coordinated input to reduce or stop the turn. Took two inputs to stop the turn and come out the side.

As Bob K said, you have got to love 90 degree flaps. It did not matter that in lowering the flaps and slowing down, I went higher into the cloud. All that mattered was the speed was down and the aircraft was very speed stable with me holding the controls where they were. It can try to spiral, but with all that drag, you won't get going fast enough to hurt the plane. Same cannot be said for spoilered sailplanes. But, I still think your best bet is to get slow and get draggy.

Fly safe,
Steve Leonard

Some gliders have spoilers that can be deployed safely and will limit the speed without damage - I seem to remember this was the case with the Jantar-1 that I owned long ago. (That had top and bottom spoilers and a main spar seemingly made from an old railway line.) Other gliders won't take the stress, since deployment of spoilers kills lift from that part of the wing so the rest of the wing carries even more load. There is no question that the wings break outward of the spoilers under high g loads in some of these cases.

I have flown (legally) in cloud and these days prefer to stay out of them!

Mike

On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 3:59:59 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
Back to the OPs comment about being trimmed and climbing for altitude when you go IMC, my suggestion is stay slow, get draggy, and do NOT let go of the controls. Soon as you do that, you are merely a passenger. Use every bit of information available to you. Make note of your current heading (you should have a rough idea of where you were pointing when you lost sight of the ground). GPS is best for this, in my opinion, even if going backwards over the ground. If it starts to change, make a small, coordinated correction to stop it. If you were going backwards, it will increase the rate of turn, so be aware of ground track at all times. Hold an arm out straight in front of you to feel G load if you don't have a g meter available. This is a situation in which speed kills, so don't get too much of it. Spiral will have increasing speed and g load. If you made an input and it got worse, undo that and make one the other way.

If you are fast when it becomes IMC, try to get slow and draggy. Changing hands on the stick to lower the gear is probably not a good idea. The flying hand knows where the stick is. Again, speed kills in this situation. And again, don't become a passenger by letting go of the stick. Keep your focus on useful things in the cockpit. Airspeed, yaw string (well, not quite in the cockpit), anything that gives an indication of current direction of travel and also possible groundspeed with that. As Dave Nadler pointed out, spoilers out means less g load to break the plane. Lower speed means you can put less G on the plane before it stalls. Do everything you can to keep slow but controllable. Avoid the temptation to try and get speed to "dive out the bottom". Your goal is to come out in one piece. Whether that be out the side, bottom, or top. Easiest way to stay in one piece is to stay slow.

Read Kempton Izuno's article about his inadvertent cloud encounter. Listen to what is happening. Paying close attention to all the little things is what, I think, saved Kemp during his encounter.

My escape involved slowing from 80 or so indicated 50 knots (at about 16,000 feet over Eastern Colorado) while cranking the flaps down 90 degrees. I eased the stick back to slow down while cranking on the flaps, then eased it forward to hold the speed I wanted. Don't do anything abruptly. When I still didn't come out, I figured out I was in a right turn when I noticed the GPS Nav display heading was increasing. I knew which side of the cloud I had been running towards, so when heading was just short of that, I made a coordinated input to reduce or stop the turn. Took two inputs to stop the turn and come out the side.

As Bob K said, you have got to love 90 degree flaps. It did not matter that in lowering the flaps and slowing down, I went higher into the cloud. All that mattered was the speed was down and the aircraft was very speed stable with me holding the controls where they were. It can try to spiral, but with all that drag, you won't get going fast enough to hurt the plane. Same cannot be said for spoilered sailplanes. But, I still think your best bet is to get slow and get draggy.

Fly safe,
Steve Leonard

I believe Kempton also proved that though the manual may say not to deploy landing flaps at higher than a modest speed, you can do it, there may not be damage, and it may help save your life. My glider (same as his) will not do a benign spiral even in still air unless the spoilers are out and landing flaps deployed.

At 02:17 14 April 2015, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 3:59:59 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
Back to the OPs comment about being trimmed and climbing for altitude
whe=
n you go IMC, my suggestion is stay slow, get draggy, and do NOT let go
of
=
the controls. Soon as you do that, you are merely a passenger. Use
every
=
bit of information available to you. Make note of your current heading
(yo=
u should have a rough idea of where you were pointing when you lost sight
o=
f the ground). GPS is best for this, in my opinion, even if going
backward=
s over the ground. If it starts to change, make a small, coordinated
corre=
ction to stop it. If you were going backwards, it will increase the rate
o=
f turn, so be aware of ground track at all times. Hold an arm out
straight=
in front of you to feel G load if you don't have a g meter available.
Thi=
s is a situation in which speed kills, so don't get too much of it.
Spiral=
will have increasing speed and g load. If you made an input and it got
wo=
rse, undo that and make one the other way.
=20
If you are fast when it becomes IMC, try to get slow and draggy.
Changin=
g hands on the stick to lower the gear is probably not a good idea. The
fl=
ying hand knows where the stick is. Again, speed kills in this
situation.
=
And again, don't become a passenger by letting go of the stick. Keep
your=
focus on useful things in the cockpit. Airspeed, yaw string (well, not
qu=
ite in the cockpit), anything that gives an indication of current
direction=
of travel and also possible groundspeed with that. As Dave Nadler
pointed=
out, spoilers out means less g load to break the plane. Lower speed
means=
you can put less G on the plane before it stalls. Do everything you can
t=
o keep slow but controllable. Avoid the temptation to try and get speed
to=
"dive out the bottom". Your goal is to come out in one piece. Whether
th=
at be out the side, bottom, or top. Easiest way to stay in one piece is
to=
stay slow.
=20
Read Kempton Izuno's article about his inadvertent cloud encounter.
List=
en to what is happening. Paying close attention to all the little things
i=
s what, I think, saved Kemp during his encounter.
=20
My escape involved slowing from 80 or so indicated 50 knots (at about
16,=
000 feet over Eastern Colorado) while cranking the flaps down 90 degrees.
I=
eased the stick back to slow down while cranking on the flaps, then
eased
=
it forward to hold the speed I wanted. Don't do anything abruptly. When
I=
still didn't come out, I figured out I was in a right turn when I
noticed
=
the GPS Nav display heading was increasing. I knew which side of the
cloud=
I had been running towards, so when heading was just short of that, I
made=
a coordinated input to reduce or stop the turn. Took two inputs to stop
t=
he turn and come out the side. =20
=20
As Bob K said, you have got to love 90 degree flaps. It did not matter
t=
hat in lowering the flaps and slowing down, I went higher into the cloud.

=
All that mattered was the speed was down and the aircraft was very speed
st=
able with me holding the controls where they were. It can try to spiral,
b=
ut with all that drag, you won't get going fast enough to hurt the plane.

=
Same cannot be said for spoilered sailplanes. But, I still think your
best=
bet is to get slow and get draggy.
=20
Fly safe,
Steve Leonard

I believe Kempton also proved that though the manual may say not to
deploy
=
landing flaps at higher than a modest speed, you can do it, there may not
b=
e damage, and it may help save your life. My glider (same as his) will
not
=
do a benign spiral even in still air unless the spoilers are out and
landin=
g flaps deployed.

Not for us ,but how it can be done


http://www.chonday.com/Videos/pilotnewzdalnd1

Can anyone tell me the Month and year of Mr. Kempton's article?

On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 7:17:16 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 3:59:59 PM UTC-7, Steve Leonard wrote:
Back to the OPs comment about being trimmed and climbing for altitude when you go IMC, my suggestion is stay slow, get draggy, and do NOT let go of the controls. Soon as you do that, you are merely a passenger. Use every bit of information available to you. Make note of your current heading (you should have a rough idea of where you were pointing when you lost sight of the ground). GPS is best for this, in my opinion, even if going backwards over the ground. If it starts to change, make a small, coordinated correction to stop it. If you were going backwards, it will increase the rate of turn, so be aware of ground track at all times. Hold an arm out straight in front of you to feel G load if you don't have a g meter available. This is a situation in which speed kills, so don't get too much of it. Spiral will have increasing speed and g load. If you made an input and it got worse, undo that and make one the other way.

If you are fast when it becomes IMC, try to get slow and draggy. Changing hands on the stick to lower the gear is probably not a good idea. The flying hand knows where the stick is. Again, speed kills in this situation.. And again, don't become a passenger by letting go of the stick. Keep your focus on useful things in the cockpit. Airspeed, yaw string (well, not quite in the cockpit), anything that gives an indication of current direction of travel and also possible groundspeed with that. As Dave Nadler pointed out, spoilers out means less g load to break the plane. Lower speed means you can put less G on the plane before it stalls. Do everything you can to keep slow but controllable. Avoid the temptation to try and get speed to "dive out the bottom". Your goal is to come out in one piece. Whether that be out the side, bottom, or top. Easiest way to stay in one piece is to stay slow.

Read Kempton Izuno's article about his inadvertent cloud encounter. Listen to what is happening. Paying close attention to all the little things is what, I think, saved Kemp during his encounter.

My escape involved slowing from 80 or so indicated 50 knots (at about 16,000 feet over Eastern Colorado) while cranking the flaps down 90 degrees. I eased the stick back to slow down while cranking on the flaps, then eased it forward to hold the speed I wanted. Don't do anything abruptly. When I still didn't come out, I figured out I was in a right turn when I noticed the GPS Nav display heading was increasing. I knew which side of the cloud I had been running towards, so when heading was just short of that, I made a coordinated input to reduce or stop the turn. Took two inputs to stop the turn and come out the side.

As Bob K said, you have got to love 90 degree flaps. It did not matter that in lowering the flaps and slowing down, I went higher into the cloud. All that mattered was the speed was down and the aircraft was very speed stable with me holding the controls where they were. It can try to spiral, but with all that drag, you won't get going fast enough to hurt the plane. Same cannot be said for spoilered sailplanes. But, I still think your best bet is to get slow and get draggy.

Fly safe,
Steve Leonard

I believe Kempton also proved that though the manual may say not to deploy landing flaps at higher than a modest speed, you can do it, there may not be damage, and it may help save your life. My glider (same as his) will not do a benign spiral even in still air unless the spoilers are out and landing flaps deployed.

On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 2:27:40 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Can anyone tell me the Month and year of Mr. Kempton's article?

March 2006. Page 26.