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Biggest German Bomb in WW2?



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 11th 04, 04:28 AM
Top Secret
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Default Biggest German Bomb in WW2?

Compared to Allied forces, what was the max they fielded? My understanding
is they lacked heavy bombers.

Top Secret


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  #2  
Old September 11th 04, 08:54 AM
Keith Willshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Top Secret" wrote in message
...
Compared to Allied forces, what was the max they fielded? My

understanding
is they lacked heavy bombers.


The largest bomber aircraft they used in squadron service
was the He-177 Grief (Griffon)

It was a 2 propellor aircraft with each propellor
driven by 2 coupled engines. Built in relatively small
numbers (approx 1000) it was not a success being prone to fires and
on the few occassions it was used over the UK it took
heavy losses. Max bomb load was around 6000 kg
but this would require external racks which slowed the
aircraft down and reduced range. More typically
1000kg of bombs would be carried internally.

It flew most of its sorties over the eastern front.

Keith


  #3  
Old September 11th 04, 03:09 PM
Peter Stickney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
"Keith Willshaw" writes:

"Top Secret" wrote in message
...
Compared to Allied forces, what was the max they fielded? My

understanding
is they lacked heavy bombers.


The largest bomber aircraft they used in squadron service
was the He-177 Grief (Griffon)

It was a 2 propellor aircraft with each propellor
driven by 2 coupled engines. Built in relatively small
numbers (approx 1000) it was not a success being prone to fires and
on the few occassions it was used over the UK it took
heavy losses. Max bomb load was around 6000 kg
but this would require external racks which slowed the
aircraft down and reduced range. More typically
1000kg of bombs would be carried internally.

It flew most of its sorties over the eastern front.


Where it suffered from a number of problems which compromized its
combat effectiveness. During the Stalingrad campaign, a Gruppe of
early He 177s was dispatched to the area to fly supplies in, and
evacuees out. (The Luftwaffe had, between Crete, Stalingrad, adn
Tunisia pretty much wiped out their transport fleet) It was found
that the 177 couldn't carry any more cargo or people than an He 111,
at a significant cost in fuel, reliability, and maintenance.
The Germans put a lot of effort into debugging the Grief, and, by mid
1944, had it pretty much in shape to use. By that time, the Luftwaffe
in the East had two problems - They didn't have the Intelligence
resources to find target suitable for heavy bombers, and there's no
use sending the airplanes out without some idea of where to go adn
what to hit, and they were suffering under severe fuel shortages. A
Gruppe-sized heavy bomber raid would have used the entire front's
AVGAS allocation for a week. There's not much point in conducting a
single raid of minimal effectiveness if it wipes out your own troops
air cover better than the Soviets did.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #4  
Old September 11th 04, 08:38 PM
robert arndt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Emmanuel Gustin" wrote in message ...
"Top Secret" wrote in message
...

Compared to Allied forces, what was the max they fielded? My

understanding
is they lacked heavy bombers.


Probably the SC 1800; SC for "Spreng Cylindrisch" (cylindrical HE)
and 1800 for the weight in kilogram. The SC 1800 was a big bomb,
but with modifications a Fw 190 could carry one, and a He 111 could
carry two on external bomb racks.



No, SC 2500:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7087/uk019b.jpg

Note: This is the bomb casing that the two German spherical
radiological weapons under construction were to be carried in and
dropped by either

a) the re-activated Sanger antipodal bomber project of Feb 1945
(mock-up construction discovered in Lofer factory at end of war)

or

b) Horten XVIII "Amerika" bomber project of March 1945 (with partial
tubular steel center section started before collapse)

with the intention of dropping them on NYC.

Rob
  #5  
Old September 13th 04, 05:35 AM
machf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:29:42 +0200, "Emmanuel Gustin"
wrote:

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...

No, SC 2500:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7087/uk019b.jpg


Hmm... Vaporware aside, which German aircraft could
carry that bomb?


He 111s, maybe?

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/sc2500.html

Found another mention he

http://www.bpears.org.uk/NE-Diary/Bck/BSeq_02.html

"The SC 2500 was the largest SC dropped on Great Britain".

There's also a reference to the SC 2600 in Ploetz's "Geschichte des zweiten
Weltkrieges", which seems very similar ("2050kg of Trialen filling").

--
__________ ____---____ Marco Antonio Checa Funcke
\_________D /-/---_----' Santiago de Surco, Lima, Peru
_H__/_/ http://machf.tripod.com
'-_____|(

remove the "no_me_j." and ".sons.of" parts before replying
  #6  
Old September 13th 04, 05:51 AM
Eunometic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Top Secret" wrote in message
...
Compared to Allied forces, what was the max they fielded? My

understanding
is they lacked heavy bombers.


The largest bomber aircraft they used in squadron service
was the He-177 Grief (Griffon)

It was a 2 propellor aircraft with each propellor
driven by 2 coupled engines. Built in relatively small
numbers (approx 1000) it was not a success being prone to fires and
on the few occassions it was used over the UK it took
heavy losses.


The general claims are that they took no losses due to enemy (RAF)
action and although this migh be in dispute they certainbly can't be
described as 'heavy'. The He 177 had good performance for its day and
the most produced version: the He 177 A-5 had solved most of the
engine problems which related to oil leakages induced by the stresses
of the coupling gearbox igniting on hot exhausts in the tight cowling
and vibration problems that sometimes caused con rods to puncture the
crank case.

Attacks involved a climbout over Germany with a long shallow diving
attack at over 400mph that made interception very difficult.


Max bomb load was around 6000 kg
but this would require external racks which slowed the
aircraft down and reduced range.


The maximum INTERNAL bombload was 6000 KG with some compromises
requred when external weapons such as three CLOS guided anti-shipping
missiles the HS 293.

It had a bigger internal bombload than the B17.

More typically
1000kg of bombs would be carried internally.


Clearly preposterous.

It flew most of its sorties over the eastern front.

Keith

  #7  
Old September 13th 04, 07:33 AM
Eunometic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(Peter Stickney) wrote in message ...
In article ,
"Keith Willshaw" writes:

"Top Secret" wrote in message
...
Compared to Allied forces, what was the max they fielded? My

understanding
is they lacked heavy bombers.


The largest bomber aircraft they used in squadron service
was the He-177 Grief (Griffon)

It was a 2 propellor aircraft with each propellor
driven by 2 coupled engines. Built in relatively small
numbers (approx 1000) it was not a success being prone to fires and
on the few occassions it was used over the UK it took
heavy losses. Max bomb load was around 6000 kg
but this would require external racks which slowed the
aircraft down and reduced range. More typically
1000kg of bombs would be carried internally.

It flew most of its sorties over the eastern front.


Where it suffered from a number of problems which compromized its
combat effectiveness. During the Stalingrad campaign, a Gruppe of
early He 177s was dispatched to the area to fly supplies in, and
evacuees out. (The Luftwaffe had, between Crete, Stalingrad, adn
Tunisia pretty much wiped out their transport fleet) It was found
that the 177 couldn't carry any more cargo or people than an He 111,
at a significant cost in fuel, reliability, and maintenance.


This in part sounds unbelievable considering the quoted actual range,
performance and huge fuel load of the He 177 aircraft. Many earlier
(Battle of Britian) He 111 seem to have been converted to transport
aircraft for paratroops and supply delivery as more advanced aircraft
replaced them eg the Do 217 K and Do 217M, Ju 188, Ju88S and perhaps
latter variants of the He 111 (H-22) Although never really an
airliner it did have a duel use history as a Lufthansa airliner and I
suspect that the He 177 bulked out on volume or while the much smaller
He 111 must have had its internal bombay removed to gain volume.
Either that or the runways couldn;t handle the He 177 at full load.

The Germans put a lot of effort into debugging the Grief, and, by mid
1944, had it pretty much in shape to use. By that time, the Luftwaffe
in the East had two problems - They didn't have the Intelligence
resources to find target suitable for heavy bombers, and there's no
use sending the airplanes out without some idea of where to go adn
what to hit, and they were suffering under severe fuel shortages. A
Gruppe-sized heavy bomber raid would have used the entire front's
AVGAS allocation for a week. There's not much point in conducting a
single raid of minimal effectiveness if it wipes out your own troops
air cover better than the Soviets did.

  #8  
Old September 13th 04, 02:00 PM
Peter Stickney
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
(Eunometic) writes:
(Peter Stickney) wrote in message ...
In article ,
"Keith Willshaw" writes:

"Top Secret" wrote in message
...
Compared to Allied forces, what was the max they fielded? My

understanding
is they lacked heavy bombers.


The largest bomber aircraft they used in squadron service
was the He-177 Grief (Griffon)

It was a 2 propellor aircraft with each propellor
driven by 2 coupled engines. Built in relatively small
numbers (approx 1000) it was not a success being prone to fires and
on the few occassions it was used over the UK it took
heavy losses. Max bomb load was around 6000 kg
but this would require external racks which slowed the
aircraft down and reduced range. More typically
1000kg of bombs would be carried internally.

It flew most of its sorties over the eastern front.


Where it suffered from a number of problems which compromized its
combat effectiveness. During the Stalingrad campaign, a Gruppe of
early He 177s was dispatched to the area to fly supplies in, and
evacuees out. (The Luftwaffe had, between Crete, Stalingrad, adn
Tunisia pretty much wiped out their transport fleet) It was found
that the 177 couldn't carry any more cargo or people than an He 111,
at a significant cost in fuel, reliability, and maintenance.


This in part sounds unbelievable considering the quoted actual range,
performance and huge fuel load of the He 177 aircraft. Many earlier
(Battle of Britian) He 111 seem to have been converted to transport
aircraft for paratroops and supply delivery as more advanced aircraft
replaced them eg the Do 217 K and Do 217M, Ju 188, Ju88S and perhaps
latter variants of the He 111 (H-22) Although never really an
airliner it did have a duel use history as a Lufthansa airliner and I
suspect that the He 177 bulked out on volume or while the much smaller
He 111 must have had its internal bombay removed to gain volume.
Either that or the runways couldn;t handle the He 177 at full load.


Unlike a cereal box, it's not a matter of weight, but of volume.
While the He 177 was a bigger, heavier airplane, it achieved its
performance by having the lowest drag, and highest fuel fraction
possible. There wasn't a whole lof of usable volume inside the
fuselage, especially for passengers. That's not really an unexpected
result - it's perfectly natural if your goal is to carry a dense,
concentrated load, such as bombs, over a fairly long distance.
Consider the examples of the B-17, the B-29, and the Tu-95. All were
used as the basis of transports, (Boeing 307, Boeing 377, and Tu-114,
respectively) but all required completely new fuselages with a major
increase in volume available. The He 111 was less compromised in this
respect - it had started life, after all, as an airliner (Well,
perhaps we should make that "airliner" - it always was intended to be
a bomber) so it had built into it the usable volume in the cabin to
hold things that were less dense than bombs. That's the reason for
the 111's wonky vertical bomb racks (For those unfamiliar, He 111
bombs were stowed vertiaccly, hanging nose-up in 4 pairs of discrete
cells in the fuselage at the location of teh wing center section).
The bombs fit into the "smoking cabin" of the He 111 airliner, and the
vertical stowage didn't require cutting the major structural members
of the fuselage structure. Removing teh racks and fitting floors in
the bays for carrying people & stuff was an easy mod. (The vertical
bomb stowage seriously compromised bombng accuracy. As the bombs
dropped out, tail first, they'd wobble around untile they stabilized
in the normal bomb manner. (Pointy part forward, fins in back, body
aligned with the airflow) Until they stabilized, they were flying
themselves in random directions, making accurate dropping impossible.)

It wasn't that the He 177 was an inferior load carrier, it just wasn't
a useful transport.


The Germans put a lot of effort into debugging the Grief, and, by mid
1944, had it pretty much in shape to use. By that time, the Luftwaffe
in the East had two problems - They didn't have the Intelligence
resources to find target suitable for heavy bombers, and there's no
use sending the airplanes out without some idea of where to go adn
what to hit, and they were suffering under severe fuel shortages. A
Gruppe-sized heavy bomber raid would have used the entire front's
AVGAS allocation for a week. There's not much point in conducting a
single raid of minimal effectiveness if it wipes out your own troops
air cover better than the Soviets did.


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #9  
Old September 13th 04, 05:31 PM
Geoffrey Sinclair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Eunometic wrote in message ...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Top Secret" wrote in message
...
Compared to Allied forces, what was the max they fielded? My

understanding
is they lacked heavy bombers.


The largest bomber aircraft they used in squadron service
was the He-177 Grief (Griffon)

It was a 2 propellor aircraft with each propellor
driven by 2 coupled engines. Built in relatively small
numbers (approx 1000) it was not a success being prone to fires and
on the few occassions it was used over the UK it took
heavy losses.


The general claims are that they took no losses due to enemy (RAF)
action and although this migh be in dispute they certainbly can't be
described as 'heavy'.


So tell us the losses, given in 1944 when the Little Blitz was started
the force had 35 He177s in a force of 550 bombers. How many
He177 sorties?

The He177 first appeared over the UK in 1942, as part of trials,
but was mainly used in the west in anti shipping operations. The
first He177 destroyed over the UK was on 21 January 1944. The
RAF collected the wreckage of 4 He177s in the period 23 February
to 2 March 1944, from crash sites in England.

As for the He177, the tactic was to climb to over 20,000 feet
over France then spend the rest of the flight to and from
London in a shallow dive. As for the claim the RAF failed
to shoot one down, RAF mosquito night fighters made claims
for 8 He177s in the first 4 months of 1944, some of which at
least have been confirmed post war. Who are the people
making the claims there were no He177 combat losses, given
all the Luftwaffe would have had is a failed to return?

Also note many of the raids were on the ports being used for
Overlord, which flatters the bomber performance since they
effectively did not cross the British coast.

According to Alfred Price's Luftwaffe Data
Book on 27 July 1942 I/KG40 had 16 out of 30 He177s
operational, on 17 May 1943 there was 1 unserviceable He177
in Luftflotte 3, there were another 56 He177s present in
Lufttwaffenbefelshaber Mitte (Germany) of which 26 were
serviceable. On 31 May 1944 Luftflotte 3 held around 50 to 60
He177s in KG40, around 40 serviceable, with Luftflotte Reich
holding some 157 in KG1 and KG100, of which 42 were
serviceable.

After all the USAAF B-17 units flew 200 successful sorties in
1942 before a B-17 was lost to enemy fighters. The numbers
matter when it comes to claiming things about losses.

The He 177 had good performance for its day and
the most produced version: the He 177 A-5 had solved most of the
engine problems which related to oil leakages induced by the stresses
of the coupling gearbox igniting on hot exhausts in the tight cowling
and vibration problems that sometimes caused con rods to puncture the
crank case.

Attacks involved a climbout over Germany with a long shallow diving
attack at over 400mph that made interception very difficult.


See above for other reasons why interception was hard, and
the bombers came from France, rather hard to stay in a dive
from Germany to England, especially one steep enough to do
400 mph in an aircraft with a top speed of around 300 mph.

Rather strange to bomb London and the channel ports from
Germany when the French airfields were closer.

Max bomb load was around 6000 kg
but this would require external racks which slowed the
aircraft down and reduced range.


The maximum INTERNAL bombload was 6000 KG with some compromises
requred when external weapons such as three CLOS guided anti-shipping
missiles the HS 293.

It had a bigger internal bombload than the B17.


6,000 KG is around 13,200 pounds of bombs, the B-17
managed 12,800 pounds internally. Rather marginal
difference.

And it is clear the He177 internal bomb load is disputed
between different references, many giving the 6,000 KG
figure as total internal and external. The He177A5 weighed
37,000 pounds empty or around 1,000 pounds more than a
B-17G but normal loaded weight of 60,000 pounds was around
5,500 pounds less, the He177 maximum loaded weight of
around 68,000 pounds was around 4,000 pounds less than
a B-17G. If the fuel capacity figure I have is correct, 2,788
imperial gallons, the He177 could carry around 20,000 pounds
of fuel, at 300 gallons to the long ton.

You want lots of fuel if you are going to climb high and then
try and stay in a 400 mph dive for a long time. You do not want
a big bomb load if your objective is to climb high and fly fast.

Now add the fact one or two of the bomb bays were often blanked off.
My bet is each bomb bay could carry a 2 1,000 kg bombs, so in theory
if all three were available you end up with 6,000 kg, but in practice it
would seem the maximum internal load was 2,000 or 4,000 kg, given
the bomb bay blanking.

More typically
1000kg of bombs would be carried internally.


Clearly preposterous.


Ah yes, the faith based answer. Presumably you have noted while
the B-17 could carry 12,800 pounds internally it often operated
with 4 to 5,000 pound bomb loads? Similar for other heavy bombers.
Bomb load depends on mission. The mission profile of the He177
in 1944 would indicate bomb loads well below maximum.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.


  #10  
Old September 14th 04, 04:21 AM
Eunometic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message ...
Eunometic wrote in message ...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Top Secret" wrote in message
...
Compared to Allied forces, what was the max they fielded? My

understanding
is they lacked heavy bombers.


The largest bomber aircraft they used in squadron service
was the He-177 Grief (Griffon)

It was a 2 propellor aircraft with each propellor
driven by 2 coupled engines. Built in relatively small
numbers (approx 1000) it was not a success being prone to fires and
on the few occassions it was used over the UK it took
heavy losses.


The general claims are that they took no losses due to enemy (RAF)
action and although this might be in dispute they certainbly can't be
described as 'heavy'.


So tell us the losses, given in 1944 when the Little Blitz was started
the force had 35 He177s in a force of 550 bombers. How many
He177 sorties?

The He177 first appeared over the UK in 1942, as part of trials,
but was mainly used in the west in anti shipping operations. The
first He177 destroyed over the UK was on 21 January 1944. The
RAF collected the wreckage of 4 He177s in the period 23 February
to 2 March 1944, from crash sites in England.

As for the He177, the tactic was to climb to over 20,000 feet
over France then spend the rest of the flight to and from
London in a shallow dive. As for the claim the RAF failed
to shoot one down, RAF mosquito night fighters made claims
for 8 He177s in the first 4 months of 1944, some of which at
least have been confirmed post war. Who are the people
making the claims there were no He177 combat losses, given
all the Luftwaffe would have had is a failed to return?


It has been claimed. I will track them down.


Also note many of the raids were on the ports being used for
Overlord, which flatters the bomber performance since they
effectively did not cross the British coast.

According to Alfred Price's Luftwaffe Data
Book on 27 July 1942 I/KG40 had 16 out of 30 He177s
operational, on 17 May 1943 there was 1 unserviceable He177
in Luftflotte 3, there were another 56 He177s present in
Lufttwaffenbefelshaber Mitte (Germany) of which 26 were
serviceable. On 31 May 1944 Luftflotte 3 held around 50 to 60
He177s in KG40, around 40 serviceable, with Luftflotte Reich
holding some 157 in KG1 and KG100, of which 42 were
serviceable.


Nice data but irrelevent to combat losses.


After all the USAAF B-17 units flew 200 successful sorties in
1942 before a B-17 was lost to enemy fighters. The numbers
matter when it comes to claiming things about losses.

The He 177 had good performance for its day and
the most produced version: the He 177 A-5 had solved most of the
engine problems which related to oil leakages induced by the stresses
of the coupling gearbox igniting on hot exhausts in the tight cowling
and vibration problems that sometimes caused con rods to puncture the
crank case.

Attacks involved a climbout over Germany with a long shallow diving
attack at over 400mph that made interception very difficult.


See above for other reasons why interception was hard, and
the bombers came from France, rather hard to stay in a dive
from Germany to England, especially one steep enough to do
400 mph in an aircraft with a top speed of around 300 mph.


Presumably they would not begin their diving attack immediatly if this
was the Hi-lo-Hi attack profile.


Rather strange to bomb London and the channel ports from
Germany when the French airfields were closer.

Max bomb load was around 6000 kg
but this would require external racks which slowed the
aircraft down and reduced range.


The maximum INTERNAL bombload was 6000 KG with some compromises
required when external weapons such as three CLOS guided anti-shipping
missiles the HS 293.

It had a bigger internal bombload than the B17.


6,000 KG is around 13,200 pounds of bombs, the B-17
managed 12,800 pounds internally. Rather marginal
difference.

And it is clear the He177 internal bomb load is disputed
between different references, many giving the 6,000 KG
figure as total internal and external. The He177A5 weighed
37,000 pounds empty or around 1,000 pounds more than a
B-17G but normal loaded weight of 60,000 pounds was around
5,500 pounds less, the He177 maximum loaded weight of
around 68,000 pounds was around 4,000 pounds less than
a B-17G. If the fuel capacity figure I have is correct, 2,788
imperial gallons, the He177 could carry around 20,000 pounds
of fuel, at 300 gallons to the long ton.


Different versions had differnt fuel loads due to tankage and wingspan
changes. Also there seem to have been field conversion kits.


You want lots of fuel if you are going to climb high and then
try and stay in a 400 mph dive for a long time. You do not want
a big bomb load if your objective is to climb high and fly fast.

Now add the fact one or two of the bomb bays were often blanked off.
My bet is each bomb bay could carry a 2 1,000 kg bombs, so in theory
if all three were available you end up with 6,000 kg, but in practice it
would seem the maximum internal load was 2,000 or 4,000 kg, given
the bomb bay blanking.


That sounds like a faith based answer.

A substantial internal bombload comparable or slightly superior to
unmodified allied 4 engined heavies is most likely. I doubt blanking
was the issue however.

There were variants of the He 177 for instance apart from the He 177
A3 and He 177 A5 there were subdivisions of the aircraft to He 177
A5/R2 or A5/R4 possibly representing maritime and land attack versions
with or without part of the bombay blanked and with racks added of to
carry a torpedoes or mines or misslies to bulky.

I suspect the "R" refers to "rucksatz" or field conversion kits the
Luftwaffe was fond of using to adpat its aircraft.


More typically
1000kg of bombs would be carried internally.


Clearly preposterous.


Ah yes, the faith based answer.


Then you are agreeing with Wilshaw that the He 177, a bomber the size
of a Lancaster,B17,Liberator with a bomb bay doors that extend a
substantial length of the fueselage probably carried only 1000kg of
bombs at a time a FW 190 single engined fighter carried more than
this?

Internet resources might be in dispute but there would be books with
complete Luftwaffe bomb loading plans for the aircraft available we
can check up on.

Presumably you have noted while
the B-17 could carry 12,800 pounds internally it often operated
with 4 to 5,000 pound bomb loads? Similar for other heavy bombers.
Bomb load depends on mission. The mission profile of the He177
in 1944 would indicate bomb loads well below maximum.


Weight does not impeded dive speed as much as it impedes top speed and
climb.


Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

 




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