Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS - Video

In this video in 3 minutes you will have endured 3 takes offs and 3
landings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCYjZ-XkPTk

Short field relative to pilot experiences I guess. Figured to go to
Newton and work on a 3000 runway with large trees on the arrival end.
Only thing I can think that triggered the stall horn on short final
for the first approach was windshear which was easily fixed by
dropping the nose.

On Nov 22, 4:24*am, " wrote:
In this video in 3 minutes you will have endured 3 takes offs and 3
landings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCYjZ-XkPTk

Short field relative to pilot experiences I guess. *Figured to go to
Newton and work on a 3000 runway with large trees on the arrival end.
Only thing I can think that triggered the stall horn on short final
for the first approach was windshear which was easily fixed by
dropping the nose.

If you want to make a short field you need to get your touchdown point
much closer to the end of the runway and get that float under control.
You seem to be in a low power steady approach but you should be aiming
to lose speed on short final. This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Cheers

On Nov 22, 2:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote:
On Nov 22, 4:24*am, " wrote:

In this video in 3 minutes you will have endured 3 takes offs and 3
landings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCYjZ-XkPTk

Short field relative to pilot experiences I guess. *Figured to go to
Newton and work on a 3000 runway with large trees on the arrival end.
Only thing I can think that triggered the stall horn on short final
for the first approach was windshear which was easily fixed by
dropping the nose.

If you want to make a short field you need to get your touchdown point
much closer to the end of the runway and get that float under control.
You seem to be in a low power steady approach but you should be aiming
to lose speed on short final. This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Cheers

The wrong place to lose energy on a short field is in the flare. Get
it slow on short final. Also, although probably not in your manual,
once on the ground get the flaps up -- it puts more weight on the
landing gear and braking is more effective. When I want the wheels on
the runway quickly I bring up the flaps late in the flare (verify
three times you're touching flaps, not gear!). In the Mooney the
flaps are good for reducing stalling speed, they are not like the barn
doors that a 182 has that increase drag, so once they've served their
purpose -- getting me close to the ground with minimal velocity
squared energy -- it's ok to bring them up so as to get down out of
ground effect and be able to use the brakes.

If you want to really polish short field stuff, make a pass or two
over the runway in slow flight, within a foot or so of touchdown. . If
you do that and feel comfortable, cut the power. The airplane will
touch down right now, and you'll probably drag the tail skid a bit.

What I've suggested is not conventional, but it works for us.

On Nov 23, 1:10*am, a wrote:

The wrong place to lose energy on a short field is in the flare. Get
it slow on short final. Also, although probably not in your manual,
once on the ground get the flaps up -- it puts more weight on the
landing gear and braking is more effective.

One of my abiding mysteries (probably my first ever post on RAP was on
this yonks ago)... why don't pilots retract flaps immediately
following touchdown and increase weight on the tires for better
braking? Over the years, I've been told that (a) the flaps take far
too long to retract to be beneficial and (b) the drag they produce is
generally more efficient than the corresponding tire braking benefit.

IIRC Bob Moore once told me that on the 727, he always retracted flaps
upon touchdown at the head of the landing roll.

*When I want the wheels on
the runway quickly I bring up the flaps late in the flare (verify
three times you're touching flaps, not gear!)

In the aircraft flight decks I've seen, the landing gear is amid the
glare shield and flaps abeam to the pilot on the pedestal!

Ramapriya

On Nov 22, 3:10*pm, a wrote:

The wrong place to lose energy on a short field is in the flare. Get
it slow on short final. Also, although probably not in your manual,
once on the ground get the flaps up -- it puts more weight on the
landing gear and braking is more effective. *When I want the wheels on
the runway quickly I bring up the flaps late in the flare (verify
three times you're touching flaps, not gear!).

Agree A. I do get flaps up right away after landing and BEFORE
braking. This is actually in the POH. Stopping, I had tons of runway
remaining

My problem I believe is that I was somewhat "intimidated" by the
closeness of trees (not well seen as I cut out that part of the
approach) and need to work on that as well as put it closer to the
numbers like Flaps50 indicated. The video has me higher then normal
on approach then I am used to.

With regards to retracting flaps before touchdown, I won't do this. I
did this once and the plane simply dropped like a rock. My guess is
the I lost the effectiveness of ground effect. Fortunately my gear is
fixed and welded!

On Nov 23, 6:05*am, D Ramapriya wrote:
Over the years, I've been told that (a) the flaps take far
too long to retract to be beneficial and (b) the drag they produce is
generally more efficient than the corresponding tire braking benefit.

The Sundowner has "manual" flaps and retract instantly.

I can see what you say on a Cessna since they take some time to go up,
but my POH actually has the instructions after landing, flaps up, then
braking.

On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote:
This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the
power curve flaps. Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any
slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground.

I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to
correcting the problem I encountered in the video. Problem as I
replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot
obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent.

I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-)

In article
,
D Ramapriya wrote:

On Nov 23, 1:10*am, a wrote:

The wrong place to lose energy on a short field is in the flare. Get
it slow on short final. Also, although probably not in your manual,
once on the ground get the flaps up -- it puts more weight on the
landing gear and braking is more effective.

One of my abiding mysteries (probably my first ever post on RAP was on
this yonks ago)... why don't pilots retract flaps immediately
following touchdown and increase weight on the tires for better
braking? Over the years, I've been told that (a) the flaps take far
too long to retract to be beneficial and (b) the drag they produce is
generally more efficient than the corresponding tire braking benefit.

The only reason I don't retract flaps after touchdown is because I
constantly forget to....

It's very helpful in my glider to do this. Not only does it put weight
on the tire and prevent lifting off again, but it also greatly improves
roll control due to how the flaps and ailerons are linked, which is
important on the ground roll for something with just one tire. And it's
effective immediately because the flaps are directly actuated by the
flap handle, so it takes literally half a second to put them all the way
up. Trouble is, most of the time I don't remember to do this until long
after I've rolled to a stop.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

On Nov 23, 11:21*am, " wrote:
On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote:

This can be achieved by making use of
the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short
field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain
point on the runway.

Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the
power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any
slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground.

I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to
correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I
replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot
obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent.

I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-)

The thing you may be missing is you are used to flying a certain glide
slope, probably defined by the VASI. On a short field for me at least
the final approach over the obstruction to flare is MUCH steeper. I'm
trading off comfort and some margin for a very short roll-out.

About early flap retraction -- you may have been higher than me when
you brought them up -- also mine are powered, it takes seconds for the
Mooney's to retract, and the M20's wings are very low, ground effect
is there even with flaps up. Doing it my way may only buy 50 feet of
runout -- never tested that, but I know now the nature of the next
flying skills wager that'll happen between me and my flying buddies.
It will have to do with how close to the runway turnoff can we land
and still make the turn. I can see myself dragging it in, hanging on
the prop way on the back side of the power curve, touching down on the
tail skid. I guess we'd have to agree the airplane should be usable
after the landing for the landing to be valid, and no swing wings or
arresting cables allowed (one buddy is ex Navy, he misses the tail
hook).

It could be an expensive way to win a 'burger and a coke.

On Nov 23, 11:43*am, a wrote:

The thing you may be missing is you are used to flying a certain glide
slope, probably defined by the VASI. On a short field for me at least
the final approach over the obstruction to flare is MUCH steeper. I'm
trading off comfort and some margin for a very short roll-out.

I bet you are right on what I am used to for glide. Instrument world
does make a mess of visual approaches and it's nuances.

Generally I don't miss the VASI or PAPI, as that is how I learned )
keeping the bug spot on the numbers), but what I haven't had much
practice "for real reasons" is that 50 foot obtacle clearance.

Imaginary trees not quite as "intimidating" when the real deal trees
tend to block the lights at approach end of the runway on a low glide
path. :-) and I really didn't feel that low coming into M23 as I would
have made the runway (without the trees) had the fan quit. The last
short field airport I went to was 2700 foot and it was much easier
since there were no obstacles.

So in a nutshell, short fields I can hang with, it's that extra
variable having trees :-) that give it a little extra slam dunking
challenge for me.