experimental to standard certificate

Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental certificate,say for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard certificate?
I understand that some gliders were imported and flown as experimental such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on reciprocal airworthiness circumstance.
The ASW 19b has been given U.S. standard certificates.
Just wondering
Scott W.

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:02:38 +0000, shkdriver wrote:

Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental certificate,say
for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard certificate? I
understand that some gliders were imported and flown as experimental
such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on reciprocal
airworthiness circumstance. The ASW 19b has been given U.S. standard
certificates. Just wondering
Scott W.

I looked into this recently and came up with the following, I didn't
actually try to do this as I didn't buy the glider in the end. But the
exercise was worthwhile..

First make sure that an equivalent model of the glider (make and model)
has been certified by the FAA and as a cosequence there is a Type
Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) available for the type from the FAA (you
can find these online by searching for tcds at www.faa.gov).

Read the the description there and, at least for the types I was looking
at, it specifies the individual serial numbers of gliders that shoudl be
are conformant with the requirements of the TCDS, in my case it was
listed as a bunch of specific serial numbers for earlier builds and a
contiguous block for later builds of the type. As well as any mandatory
modifications that need to be carried out for the FAA Standard CofA.

One of the requirements stated in the TCDS is specific wording on the
original Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from Germany (where the
glider came from, the owner of the glider had this in his well documented
glider, not sure how you would get one of these otherwise, perhaps the
manufacturer or the LDB in the case of germany)

My stumbling block was that the FAA TCDS specified particular wording
that should be present in the Export C of A from Germany, this wasn't
present in exactly the specified words for the the particular glider I
was looking at (even though that particular glider was specifically
listed as conformant by serial number). I think this was a timing issue
in terms of which document was issued first... i never resolved whether
this might be an issue.

The final step is a rigorous inspection of the aircraft by an FAA
designated Inspector (that the FAA do for free apparently...!! ), I
forget the formal name for this inspection. But essentially it is just a
very thorough Anunual Inspection.

Once complete its a little bit of paper work and you are on the Standard
Airworthiness Category.

Let me know if you succeed, I'll be doing this sometime soon,..

Peter

On Jan 13, 4:01*am, Peter wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:02:38 +0000, shkdriver wrote:
Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental certificate,say
for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard certificate? I
understand that some gliders were imported and flown as experimental
such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on reciprocal
airworthiness circumstance. The ASW 19b has been given U.S. standard
certificates. Just wondering
Scott W.

I looked into this recently and came up with the following, I didn't
actually try to do this as I didn't buy the glider in the end. But the
exercise was worthwhile..

First make sure that an equivalent model of the glider (make and model)
has been certified by the FAA and as a cosequence there is a Type
Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) available for the type from the FAA (you
can find these online by searching for tcds atwww.faa.gov).

Read the the description there and, at least for the types I was looking
at, it specifies the individual serial numbers of gliders that shoudl be
are conformant with the requirements of the TCDS, in my case it was
listed as a bunch of specific serial numbers for earlier builds and a
contiguous block for later builds of the type. As well as any mandatory *
modifications that need to be carried out for the FAA Standard CofA.

One of the requirements stated in the TCDS is specific wording on the
original Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from Germany (where the
glider came from, the owner of the glider had this in his well documented
glider, not sure how you would get one of these otherwise, perhaps the
manufacturer or the LDB in the case of germany)

My stumbling block was that the FAA TCDS specified particular wording
that should be present in the Export C of A from Germany, this wasn't
present in exactly the specified words for the the particular glider I
was looking at (even though that particular glider was specifically
listed as conformant by serial number). I think this was a timing issue
in terms of which document was issued first... i never resolved whether
this might be an issue.

The final step is a rigorous inspection of the aircraft by an FAA
designated Inspector (that the FAA do for free apparently...!! ), I
forget the formal name for this inspection. But essentially it is just a
very thorough Anunual Inspection.

Once complete its a little bit of paper work and you are on the Standard
Airworthiness Category.

Let me know if you succeed, I'll be doing this sometime soon,..

Peter

The "Import C of A (certificate of airworthiness) done by the FAA
inspector is not an annual inspection. It is an inspection to ensure
that the aircraft conforms to the Type Certificate (Type Data
Certificate). An annual inspection will have to be done by your
favorite IA. When I have imported aircraft I have hired a Designated
Airworthiness Representative to perform the C of A inspection for me.
They are not free like the FAA but they generally are more
knowledgeable and easier to work with. The worse case scenario is
being assigned a FAA inspector who knows nothing about your glider. I
have heard of aircraft being rejected for ridiculous reasons. Most of
these inspections consist of the inspector looking over the paperwork
very thoroughly and then a quick examination of the aircraft while
comparing it to the type certificate. Any modifications make it very
tough to pass the inspection.

On Jan 13, 8:34*am, lanebush wrote:
On Jan 13, 4:01*am, Peter wrote:





On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:02:38 +0000, shkdriver wrote:
Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental certificate,say
for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard certificate? I
understand that some gliders were imported and flown as experimental
such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on reciprocal
airworthiness circumstance. The ASW 19b has been given U.S. standard
certificates. Just wondering
Scott W.

I looked into this recently and came up with the following, I didn't
actually try to do this as I didn't buy the glider in the end. But the
exercise was worthwhile..

First make sure that an equivalent model of the glider (make and model)
has been certified by the FAA and as a cosequence there is a Type
Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) available for the type from the FAA (you
can find these online by searching for tcds atwww.faa.gov).

Read the the description there and, at least for the types I was looking
at, it specifies the individual serial numbers of gliders that shoudl be
are conformant with the requirements of the TCDS, in my case it was
listed as a bunch of specific serial numbers for earlier builds and a
contiguous block for later builds of the type. As well as any mandatory *
modifications that need to be carried out for the FAA Standard CofA.

One of the requirements stated in the TCDS is specific wording on the
original Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from Germany (where the
glider came from, the owner of the glider had this in his well documented
glider, not sure how you would get one of these otherwise, perhaps the
manufacturer or the LDB in the case of germany)

My stumbling block was that the FAA TCDS specified particular wording
that should be present in the Export C of A from Germany, this wasn't
present in exactly the specified words for the the particular glider I
was looking at (even though that particular glider was specifically
listed as conformant by serial number). I think this was a timing issue
in terms of which document was issued first... i never resolved whether
this might be an issue.

The final step is a rigorous inspection of the aircraft by an FAA
designated Inspector (that the FAA do for free apparently...!! ), I
forget the formal name for this inspection. But essentially it is just a
very thorough Anunual Inspection.

Once complete its a little bit of paper work and you are on the Standard
Airworthiness Category.

Let me know if you succeed, I'll be doing this sometime soon,..

Peter

The "Import C of A (certificate of airworthiness) done by the FAA
inspector is not an annual inspection. *It is an inspection to ensure
that the aircraft conforms to the Type Certificate (Type Data
Certificate). *An annual inspection will have to be done by your
favorite IA. *When I have imported aircraft I have hired a Designated
Airworthiness Representative to perform the C of A inspection for me.
They are not free like the FAA but they generally are more
knowledgeable and easier to work with. *The worse case scenario is
being assigned a FAA inspector who knows nothing about your glider. *I
have heard of aircraft being rejected for ridiculous reasons. *Most of
these inspections consist of the inspector looking over the paperwork
very thoroughly and then a quick examination of the aircraft while
comparing it to the type certificate. *Any modifications make it very
tough to pass the inspection.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ditto on the DAR. I was VERY fortunate to work with a good one in
the past. Since he had been through the drill several times, he
understood the glider world. The last thing you want is a guy who
has never seen a glider before. Many of the things we take as
routine in gliding (say inter-changeable tips) can throw a novice for
loop.

Suggest you find out from your local gliding clubs/FBOs who the "good
guys" are.

I know a good guy DAR at El Monte CA if needed.
BT

Ditto on the DAR. I was VERY fortunate to work with a good one in
the past. Since he had been through the drill several times, he
understood the glider world. The last thing you want is a guy who
has never seen a glider before. Many of the things we take as
routine in gliding (say inter-changeable tips) can throw a novice for
loop.

Suggest you find out from your local gliding clubs/FBOs who the "good
guys" are.

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 05:34:49 -0800, lanebush wrote:

On Jan 13, 4:01Â*am, Peter wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 04:02:38 +0000, shkdriver wrote:
Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental
certificate,say for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard
certificate? I understand that some gliders were imported and flown
as experimental such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on
reciprocal airworthiness circumstance. The ASW 19b has been given
U.S. standard certificates. Just wondering
Scott W.

I looked into this recently and came up with the following, I didn't
actually try to do this as I didn't buy the glider in the end. But the
exercise was worthwhile..

First make sure that an equivalent model of the glider (make and model)
has been certified by the FAA and as a cosequence there is a Type
Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) available for the type from the FAA (you
can find these online by searching for tcds atwww.faa.gov).

Read the the description there and, at least for the types I was
looking at, it specifies the individual serial numbers of gliders that
shoudl be are conformant with the requirements of the TCDS, in my case
it was listed as a bunch of specific serial numbers for earlier builds
and a contiguous block for later builds of the type. As well as any
mandatory modifications that need to be carried out for the FAA
Standard CofA.

One of the requirements stated in the TCDS is specific wording on the
original Certificate of Airworthiness for Export from Germany (where
the glider came from, the owner of the glider had this in his well
documented glider, not sure how you would get one of these otherwise,
perhaps the manufacturer or the LDB in the case of germany)

My stumbling block was that the FAA TCDS specified particular wording
that should be present in the Export C of A from Germany, this wasn't
present in exactly the specified words for the the particular glider I
was looking at (even though that particular glider was specifically
listed as conformant by serial number). I think this was a timing issue
in terms of which document was issued first... i never resolved whether
this might be an issue.

The final step is a rigorous inspection of the aircraft by an FAA
designated Inspector (that the FAA do for free apparently...!! ), I
forget the formal name for this inspection. But essentially it is just
a very thorough Anunual Inspection.

Once complete its a little bit of paper work and you are on the
Standard Airworthiness Category.

Let me know if you succeed, I'll be doing this sometime soon,..

Peter

The "Import C of A (certificate of airworthiness) done by the FAA
inspector is not an annual inspection. It is an inspection to ensure
that the aircraft conforms to the Type Certificate (Type Data
Certificate). An annual inspection will have to be done by your
favorite IA. When I have imported aircraft I have hired a Designated
Airworthiness Representative to perform the C of A inspection for me.
They are not free like the FAA but they generally are more knowledgeable
and easier to work with. The worse case scenario is being assigned a
FAA inspector who knows nothing about your glider. I have heard of
aircraft being rejected for ridiculous reasons. Most of these
inspections consist of the inspector looking over the paperwork very
thoroughly and then a quick examination of the aircraft while comparing
it to the type certificate. Any modifications make it very tough to
pass the inspection.

Yup, that's the name I couldn't remember, A Conformity Inspection or some
such, its to ensure compliance with the TCDS requirements, check for
unauthorised/unapproved work or mods and to trawl paperwork in detail, I
was told that it was like having a combination of Annual and Ramp
inspection all in one nice visit. You would also need to have the
aircraft current in its normal Annual before this was done too...
probably not a bad thing to help you prep the docs for the more detailed
inspection.

Peter

On Jan 12, 8:02*pm, shkdriver
wrote:
Anyone ever purchase a used glider with an experimental certificate,say
for example, an ASW 19b, and change to a standard certificate?
I understand that some gliders were imported and flown as
experimental such as jantars, due to govermental restrictions on
reciprocal airworthiness circumstance.
The ASW 19b has been given U.S. standard certificates.
Just wondering
Scott W.

--
shkdriver

I purchased a used ASW19B that had no US CofA. It was an import. As
long as you have the Original Export CofA from the manufacturer and
take it to a DAR you should have no problem. I did mine through Dave
Monti in Minden and he did the annual along with it. The FAA DAR
directory is here and you want the DAR maintenance guys.
http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat...rdirectory.pdf

My ASW 15 went from standard to experimental shortly after it was
imported (the original owner had water bags installed). When I got it
I had it switched back to standard after removing the ballast system.
It was no big deal. The DAR inspected the glider and the only thing I
can remember that he wanted changed was the fuses needed to be
labeled. I can't even remember why I did it. Possibly lower insurance
cost and no program letter or limitations (some of which were No Night
Flight, No Passengers and No Towing Gliders).

A few days ago I was looking for something unrelated and came across
this document (a bit old) that may help you. This one is canceled,
but it may help lead you to the current procedure.

The document: 8130.15 dated 09/14/1979
Airworthiness Certification of "Prematurely" Exported Gliders

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...gh light=8130


You might also try a google search like:
convert type certificate experimental site:faa.gov

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 16:29:01 -0800, Todd wrote:

A few days ago I was looking for something unrelated and came across
this document (a bit old) that may help you. This one is canceled, but
it may help lead you to the current procedure.

The document: 8130.15 dated 09/14/1979 Airworthiness Certification
of "Prematurely" Exported Gliders

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...dance_Library/
rgOrders.nsf/0/A92F26AB98C2B4958625756D00670ACB?
OpenDocument&Highlight=8130


You might also try a google search like: convert type certificate
experimental site:faa.gov

Thats an excellent find, the document deals with exactly the circumstance
that I anticipated having problems with, thank you for posting, and I'm
sure many others out there will gain confidence in being able to put a
glider through a similar procedure now that an official FAA document
details a route through the process... updating it is the next
challenge :-)

Many thanks,

Peter