How many hours are required for twin insurance

Greeting to All,

I am investigating the possibility of purchasing my own plane in the next 12
months. With the soft prices on twin airplanes, they are starting to look a
little more appealing to me than a big single. I have spent a lot of time
investigating costs associated with maintenance so I don't want to stir up
anything.

My question is.... how many hours of multi-engine time are insurance
companies looking for before they would sell you a policy for your own twin?
If this is not to outragous, then I will probably get my ME rating and then
rent a twin to build hours before my purchase.

If you have some information, please also include the underwriter that you
are referring to.

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

The ONLY people to answer this are the insurance companies... Call them and
ask. Give a for-instance... It depends on the ratings you have, the
distribution of your time (complex, high-performance) and the airplane you
want to buy. I was able to get insured through Avemco in an Apache with 200
hours TT and only 25 multi (in make and model).

Too much riding on the answer to ask us. Ask the insurance companies.

Dan



"Kevin Chandler" wrote in message
news
Greeting to All,

I am investigating the possibility of purchasing my own plane in the next
12
months. With the soft prices on twin airplanes, they are starting to look
a
little more appealing to me than a big single. I have spent a lot of time
investigating costs associated with maintenance so I don't want to stir up
anything.

My question is.... how many hours of multi-engine time are insurance
companies looking for before they would sell you a policy for your own
twin?
If this is not to outragous, then I will probably get my ME rating and
then
rent a twin to build hours before my purchase.

If you have some information, please also include the underwriter that you
are referring to.

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

In short, it all depends.

That being said, here is some info. The insurance companies still do
not like to cover twins. Your circumstances will depend on your prior
experience and history. In my case, when I progressed to a twin I had
over 2000 hrs. and 750 hrs. of complex, hi-performance time. This
helped. If I was progressing from a C172 to a twin with retractable
gear, 200+ hp engines etc. they would not have looked favorably. I
would expect a reasonable amount of IFR experience will also be
required. Again, in my case, they wanted 25 hrs. of ME time (this
included the time I built getting the rating), a sign off from a CFI
(this time put me over the 25 hr. requirement) and a check ride and
sign off with another CFI. They also wanted me to take an 8 hr. multi.
simulator course at Flight Safety or Simcom. The only courses I could
find were on a simulator that simulated a Navajo. We realized that I
would spend more time getting used to the Navajo than demonstrating
simulator skills so they dropped that requirement and had the second
CFI sign me off on a simulator at a local airport. The simulator work
was basically a waste of time as the CFI didn't really know what
exercises to perform, the simulator had mechanical problems and the
simulator is a poor substitute for the actual plane (although there
are certain exercises you would do in a simulator that you would not
do in the a/c). We shot 3 simulated approaches and gave up on the
simulator and took the check ride.

My carrier is USAIG. Don't underestimate the cost of insurance. It was
a big jump up from the previous insurance. Also, do the math on the
operating costs and maintenance. One last bit of advise, when getting
the ME rating and the CFI insurance sign off make sure you are current
on hand flying approaches (presuming you are looking for IFR
privileges with your ME rating). The most difficult part of the
experience for me was hand flying approaches (with one or both engines
operating it did not matter). I had let my skills lapse due to flying
approaches coupled with the autopilot. They will want to see
proficiency without the autopilot. You can save some time and money by
brushing up on these skills in a single, if this applies to you.
Besides, ME rating or not, you should be very proficient in hand
flying approaches unless you live somewhere like Phoenix.


"Kevin Chandler" wrote in message ...
Greeting to All,

I am investigating the possibility of purchasing my own plane in the next 12
months. With the soft prices on twin airplanes, they are starting to look a
little more appealing to me than a big single. I have spent a lot of time
investigating costs associated with maintenance so I don't want to stir up
anything.

My question is.... how many hours of multi-engine time are insurance
companies looking for before they would sell you a policy for your own twin?
If this is not to outragous, then I will probably get my ME rating and then
rent a twin to build hours before my purchase.

If you have some information, please also include the underwriter that you
are referring to.

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

Don't forget that insurance is only a small part of the cost of owning a
twin. Plan on spending 3 to 4 times the cost of the fuel.

jerry

"Kevin Chandler" wrote in message
news
Greeting to All,

I am investigating the possibility of purchasing my own plane in the next
12
months. With the soft prices on twin airplanes, they are starting to look
a
little more appealing to me than a big single. I have spent a lot of time
investigating costs associated with maintenance so I don't want to stir up
anything.

My question is.... how many hours of multi-engine time are insurance
companies looking for before they would sell you a policy for your own
twin?
If this is not to outragous, then I will probably get my ME rating and
then
rent a twin to build hours before my purchase.

If you have some information, please also include the underwriter that you
are referring to.

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

"Kevin Chandler" wrote
My question is.... how many hours of multi-engine time are insurance
companies looking for before they would sell you a policy for your own twin?
If this is not to outragous, then I will probably get my ME rating and then
rent a twin to build hours before my purchase.

A guy on my home field just recently bought a Twin Comanche. He has
less than 300 TT, no instrument rating, and no multi time. He got
insurance.

1) He paid a lot to get it - I think about $7000 for the first year.
2) He will have to get his multi/instrument and 25 hours in make and
model to solo it.

When I bought my Twin Comanche, I had about 700 hours and an
instrument rating. No multi time, and less than 1 hour of retract
time. I paid almost $4000 for the first year of insurance. I also
had to get my multi/instrument and 20 hours in make and model to solo
it.

In my opinion, getting a multi rating in a rental twin and building
hours before you buy just so you can get cheaper insurance simply
doesn't make sense. The twin you want to buy probably won't be
available for rent. Owner flown twins are either going to be quick
and efficient (Twin Comanche, TravelAir), load haulers (Aztec), or big
and fast (C-310, Baron). There are only a handful for rent, and
they're expensive, and usually there is a total time requirement just
to take dual in them. Rental twins are mostly slow and docile -
Apache, Duchess, Seminole. Your insurance company is going to require
20+ hours in make and model even if you go in having 25 hours in
something else and a multi rating. You might save a little money, but
not enough to pay for rental and instructor getting those 25 hours and
a rating. Also, if you own your own twin, you can most likely get a
much better grade of instruction than the FBO will offer.

The hot tip, IMO, is buy your twin and train in it.

Michael

"
In my opinion, getting a multi rating in a rental twin and building
hours before you buy just so you can get cheaper insurance simply
doesn't make sense. The twin you want to buy probably won't be
available for rent. Owner flown twins are either going to be quick
and efficient (Twin Comanche, TravelAir), load haulers (Aztec), or big
and fast (C-310, Baron). There are only a handful for rent, and
they're expensive, and usually there is a total time requirement just
to take dual in them. Rental twins are mostly slow and docile -
Apache, Duchess, Seminole. Your insurance company is going to require
20+ hours in make and model even if you go in having 25 hours in
something else and a multi rating. You might save a little money, but
not enough to pay for rental and instructor getting those 25 hours and
a rating. Also, if you own your own twin, you can most likely get a
much better grade of instruction than the FBO will offer.

The hot tip, IMO, is buy your twin and train in it.

Michael

That only works if you can get insurance for training in your plane. My
policy has a no instruction clause in it.:- Luckily my insurer treated the
time I spent getting my rating in a 310 as the time in type for the 340.

jerry

"JerryK" wrote
The hot tip, IMO, is buy your twin and train in it.

That only works if you can get insurance for training in your plane. My
policy has a no instruction clause in it.:- Luckily my insurer treated the
time I spent getting my rating in a 310 as the time in type for the 340.

The no-instruction clause likely doesn't apply to the owner (at least
mine doesn't). But what I'm suggesting won't work for a turbo
pressurized twin anyway - both because the insurance won't buy off on
it and because you will tear up the engines in training.

Michael

Kevin...

There are reasons the market is soft for light twins unless you believe in
magic and think you just came along at a lucky time.

Look at the safety records per hour and per mile of SE vs. ME. Twins auger
in a lot when you lose an engine, especially on takeoff and go-around. When
this happens there are NEVER any survivors. Losing an engine is more than
twice as likely since there are two of them and the fuel system is often
complex and prone to operator error. Fatal accident rates per hour of light
twins is generally higher than singles - about double. This is an ironic
fact and the subject of much hangar and barstool talk. Most twin owners have
developed ways to rationalize this away and most single owners glory in it
but the numbers are there anyway.

As mentioned above, maintenance and fuel will suck your wallet dry unless
you're a rich man. When you add up the expenses at year end, you can expect
$300 - $400 per hour for many light twins unless you fly a lot. Twins have
a lot of expensive AD's.

Light twins offer better performance than singles when both engines are
running. They are also quieter. That's the only proven advantages. Modern
composite singles, however, outperform most light twins (there are no modern
light piston twins) in every category except for useful load. They are also
much cheaper to own and operate. Unfortunately, I don't own one but I would
if I could swing it.

DB

"Doodybutch" wrote in message et...
Kevin...

There are reasons the market is soft for light twins unless you believe in
magic and think you just came along at a lucky time.

Look at the safety records per hour and per mile of SE vs. ME. Twins auger
in a lot when you lose an engine, especially on takeoff and go-around. When
this happens there are NEVER any survivors. Losing an engine is more than
twice as likely since there are two of them and the fuel system is often
complex and prone to operator error. Fatal accident rates per hour of light
twins is generally higher than singles - about double. This is an ironic
fact and the subject of much hangar and barstool talk. Most twin owners have
developed ways to rationalize this away and most single owners glory in it
but the numbers are there anyway.

Pilots didn't just learn about these safety risks of light twins -
we've known about these for years, as such, they are a minimal factor
in the recent price reductions of twins.

Twin prices are depressed for a number of reasons, but the primary one
is a dip in the overall economy. There are less people (relative to
2-4 years ago) who can afford the acquisition, operation, insurance,
and major maintenance costs.

As mentioned above, maintenance and fuel will suck your wallet dry unless
you're a rich man. When you add up the expenses at year end, you can expect
$300 - $400 per hour for many light twins unless you fly a lot. Twins have
a lot of expensive AD's.

Very true about the high maintenance costs, but your hourly figure is
off by a factor of 2... Unless we're talking about pressurized 7-8
seat twins like the 421 or similar, and I think we can assume Kevin
isn't buying a 421 for his first twin. He is probably looking at an
entry level twin, like a TC, Seneca, B55, or maybe 310. Neglecting
cost of capital - a Seneca II can be owned & operated for $200/hour.

Wrt to the 3xx and 4xx series Cessna twins. There are concerns about
a series of upcoming AD (wing spar) that will be VERY costly. This is
putting pricing pressure on these specific models.

One other thing - many of the light twins that are being fire-sold
right now are trash heaps. If the previous owner cannot afford to
keep them, they probably weren't maintaining them.

Having said that - airplanes are a bit like the stock market or
real-estate market. The airplane economy can be cyclical, and if you
time it right, do a good prebuy, and get lucky - you can get a good
deal.

-Nathan