Right pattern for practice?

"BTIZ" wrote:

gilder may have the right of way.. when he's landing and lower than the
powered aircraft.. but if he's trying to thermal out from pattern altitude
or lower.. he's not landing.. he does not have right of way over "landing
traffic".. but it's always, you never know when he's gonna bail for the
runway.

In the type of situation I described (forced landing at
another airport), I typically make several decisions to
land.

At a 1,000' AGL I'll have decided to land and be setting up,
double checking wind and traffic, approaching a pattern
entry point, but still hoping for lift, and positioning
myself with respect to wind to optimize my ability to make
some exploratory turns if I find something, but still be
able to safely enter a pattern after drifting downwind. My
gear will still be up. If I find a possible thermal, I will
make a turn and my mental state switches to "not landing."
After one or more complete turns, (during which I get an
excellent view of the pattern and the runway) my mental
state will change back to landing if things are not
improving.

Below 1000' my mental state may switch to "not landing" as I
start a turn in lift, but if it's going to change back, I
almost always know within seconds of starting the turn.
Mentally, I may have recommitted to "landing" while still
turning away from the runway. Again I get a great view of
the pattern. Somewhere between 800' and 600' my gear comes
out, and any lift I check will cause me to retract the gear.

As I turn downwind to base, I'm still hoping to be able to
make that turn a 360 deg. thermal turn. As I roll out,
unless lift hits me strongly (and it has, more than once), I
make the final, irrevocable commitment to land, double check
gear down and land.

"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message ...


I thought a glider had right-of-way over a powered aircraft, unless
the powered aircraft is "in distress". (per 91.113)

You need to read 91.113. The class preference only applies to
aircraft converging at near the same altitude at other than head-on
(or nearly-so). It doesn't say that some clown out noodling around
looking for a thermal trying not landing can interfere with landing
traffic.

Where does it say this doesn't apply on final approach?

Where does it say he does?

If the glider
has the lower altitude, doesn't he actually have the right-of-way?

Not if he's not landing. The premise was that he was out there noodling
around for lift and might dive to the runway if he can't find any. That's
specifically not permitted by 91.113(g).

The FAA has consistantly held that the rules that apply to landing mean
you are actually intending to land. High speed low approaches, for instance,
were held that since you weren't intending to land you couldn't have out of 91.119.

If the glider pilot wants to land, safely. Let him do so. But the scenario is
that he was going to noodle around interfering with landing traffic without any
intent to land, but rahter to stretch his XC time.

"BJen" wrote in message ...


Below 1000' my mental state may switch to "not landing" as I
start a turn in lift, but if it's going to change back, I
almost always know within seconds of starting the turn.
Mentally, I may have recommitted to "landing" while still
turning away from the runway. Again I get a great view of
the pattern. Somewhere between 800' and 600' my gear comes
out, and any lift I check will cause me to retract the gear.


Keep your mind in the "landing" mode or get out of the way
of landing traffic. You have no business, and are in violation
of the regs to do otherwise.

"Ron Natalie" wrote:

Keep your mind in the "landing" mode or get out of the way
of landing traffic. You have no business, and are in violation
of the regs to do otherwise.

What reg prohibits me from deciding not to land? I'm not in
an airplane, and I don't want to land at this airport, but
must do so for safety. If a thermal permits me not to land,
and I don't want to, and can leave the pattern safely, what
regulation do you think prohibits me from departing?

"BJen" wrote in message ...
"Ron Natalie" wrote:

Keep your mind in the "landing" mode or get out of the way
of landing traffic. You have no business, and are in violation
of the regs to do otherwise.

What reg prohibits me from deciding not to land? I'm not in
an airplane, and I don't want to land at this airport, but
must do so for safety. If a thermal permits me not to land,
and I don't want to, and can leave the pattern safely, what
regulation do you think prohibits me from departing?

If you're not going to land, then get out of the way of landing
traffic. That's the rule. Puttering around looking for a thermal
trying to decide if you need to land or not is not landing.

"BJen" wrote in message
...

Below 1000' my mental state may switch to "not landing" as I
start a turn in lift, but if it's going to change back, I
almost always know within seconds of starting the turn.
Mentally, I may have recommitted to "landing" while still
turning away from the runway. Again I get a great view of
the pattern. Somewhere between 800' and 600' my gear comes
out, and any lift I check will cause me to retract the gear.

As I turn downwind to base, I'm still hoping to be able to
make that turn a 360 deg. thermal turn. As I roll out,
unless lift hits me strongly (and it has, more than once), I
make the final, irrevocable commitment to land, double check
gear down and land.


Isn't switching mental state so low to the ground a safety issue
in its own right, regardless of the impact it might have on others?

One of the dangerous parts of Instrument flying is the mental
switching between flying 'on instruments' and 'on visual' when
shooting an ILS down to minimums. Quite a few accidents have
been caused by disorientation when switching mental gears
in patchy low-level clouds -- it takes people a few seconds to
adjust & one has to be quite sure what you are planning to do
(that is, stay 'on instruments' until you're guaranteed a continuous
visual so you don't have to change gears again).

I'm no glider pilot, but I'd have thought the same psychological
issues might be relevant here. Is it just you that change mental
state so low to the ground, or is it common practice.

Not trying to be confrontational. Just interested.

"Tony Cox" wrote:

Isn't switching mental state so low to the ground a safety issue
in its own right, regardless of the impact it might have on others?

Yes, it's a "safety issue" in the sense that there is, as
always, risk in flying. The risk can be managed, however.
My description was at my limits, in perfect favorable
conditions when I've got lots of recent flight practice, the
wind isn't too strong, etc.

One of the dangerous parts of Instrument flying is the mental
switching between flying 'on instruments' and 'on visual' when
shooting an ILS down to minimums. Quite a few accidents have
been caused by disorientation when switching mental gears
in patchy low-level clouds -- it takes people a few seconds to
adjust & one has to be quite sure what you are planning to do
(that is, stay 'on instruments' until you're guaranteed a continuous
visual so you don't have to change gears again).

I recognize this, but it's important for me to make a strong
commitment to my flight status. I want the mental
transition to "landing" every time before I land. If I'm
trying to get away, I may decide I need to raise the gear.
I may actually have lift and still have to land if I'm
climbing slowly and the wind is moving me away from a
position of safe access to the runway to "too far downwind."
The mental switch to "landing" ensures my landing gear
check, my ballast gets dumped, and I tighten my belts. I
may make those checks 3-4 times if conditions are variable.

I'm no glider pilot, but I'd have thought the same psychological
issues might be relevant here. Is it just you that change mental
state so low to the ground, or is it common practice.

If you read my post closely, you'll see these mental states:

1) "I'm probably going to have to land" I'm now making sure
I know the pattern, wind, traffic, etc.

2) "I'm landing." Here is where I do my checklist, dump
water ballast (it takes me 3+ minutes), enter the pattern
and get the gear down, etc. If I'm still trying to stay
aloft, this decision is revocable, but my flight path is
fixed unless lift is encountered. If I encounter lift, I
decide whether I'm too low, the wind is too strong or
traffic is a problem that prevents a turn.

3) "I'm not landing" I divert from my flight path by
turning in lift I've decided it is safe to turn in. My gear
may be retracted if things are improving significantly. I
may stop dumping water. I may switch back and forth from
state 3 and 2. Every entry into mental state 2 results in a
complete checklst, gear check, etc.

4) "I'm irrevocably commmitted to landing" Lift encountered
now is disregarded. This is a positive irrevocable decision
in my mental state that differs from state 2. I have never
broken and have promised myself I will never break this
commitment no matter how tempted I am. It is usually
entered from state 3, when things haven't gone as well as
I'd hoped.

I suspect that something similar is universal among XC
glider pilots, with the altitude that one will switch to
mental state 3 gradually decreasing with skill and
experience. Like many other glider pilots ahve said to me,
it seems that the moment I lower the gear, or even touch the
gear handle, I hit lift. When we do, we usually can escape.

You have to be ready to land, and you have to have a lower
limit. As your altitude decreases, your options diminish
and you are forced to approach the landing area. This
forcing of your location may begin 15 to 20 miles away from
an airport. A successful "save" is entirely possible long
after this position forcing has begun.

Not trying to be confrontational. Just interested.

I don't take it as confrontational. In part I posted here
to hear the view of those who have no glider experience. I
want to know what they think.