Glider crow-hops:

I am a newly soloed student pilot, still flying the club's 2-seat trainer. I'll be moving to the club's single-seater soon. Then I hope to be allowed by my instructor to make solo flights in my own mid-performance sailplane that I bought before starting glider lessons. It was flown by advanced solo students at a far-away club, so should be OK for me to fly.

I have built and flown a number of powered ultralights over the years, some of my own design, and have always started out doing lots of crow-hops in them before the actual first flight. The crow-hops have helped me get used to the feel of it, operating the controls, and to get some experience in takeoff, touchdown, roll out, and dealing with mild cross winds, before taking on the whole flight and it's associated risks.

My instructor, nor any one around, have had experience in the particular glider that I own. For various reasons I can't let anyone else fly it first to advise me about how to fly it. So no help there.

So I'm thinking that doing crow-hops in it might be a good idea before my actual first flights in it. They would be by auto-tow, on a 5000' runway, accelerating quickly to the normal touch down speed of the glider, getting no more than 3 feet high. Then right away releasing, pulling on the air-brakes, and landing straight ahead. Of course I would be using a driver who knows about glider towing issues and would get out of the way.

Any thoughts or comments about this idea?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Booker

At 12:47 23 August 2012, J-Soar wrote:
I am a newly soloed student pilot, still flying the club's 2-seat
trainer.
=
I'll be moving to the club's single-seater soon. Then I hope to
be allowed
=
by my instructor to make solo flights in my own mid-
performance sailplane
t=
hat I bought before starting glider lessons. It was flown by
advanced solo
=
students at a far-away club, so should be OK for me to fly.
=20
I have built and flown a number of powered ultralights over the
years,
some=
of my own design, and have always started out doing lots of
crow-hops in
t=
hem before the actual first flight. The crow-hops have helped
me get used
t=
o the feel of it, operating the controls, and to get some
experience in
tak=
eoff, touchdown, roll out, and dealing with mild cross winds,
before
taking=
on the whole flight and it's associated risks.

My instructor, nor any one around, have had experience in the
particular
gl=
ider that I own. For various reasons I can't let anyone else fly
it first
t=
o advise me about how to fly it. So no help there.

So I'm thinking that doing crow-hops in it might be a good idea
before my
a=
ctual first flights in it. They would be by auto-tow, on a 5000'
runway,
ac=
celerating quickly to the normal touch down speed of the
glider, getting
no=
more than 3 feet high. Then right away releasing, pulling on
the
air-brake=
s, and landing straight ahead. Of course I would be using a
driver who
know=
s about glider towing issues and would get out of the way.

Any thoughts or comments about this idea?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Booker


I'm a low hours solo pilot too, so my advice is limited (and
caveated) but:
1. Read the aircraft's manual;
2. Post again stating the glider type so that pilots with
experience in it can give you good advice;
3. Fiddling with the airbrakes near the ground when new on type
is not a very good idea and could lead to more excitement than
you'd probably want...

On 8/23/2012 8:47 AM, J-Soar wrote:
Any thoughts or comments about this idea?

An FAA technicality comes quickly to mind. That's a ground launch, a
different launch method than what you are trained for.

Vaughn

On Aug 23, 7:47*am, J-Soar wrote:
I am a newly soloed student pilot, still flying the club's 2-seat trainer.. I'll be moving to the club's single-seater soon. Then I hope to be allowed by my instructor to make solo flights in my own mid-performance sailplane that I bought before starting glider lessons. It was flown by advanced solo students at a far-away club, so should be OK for me to fly.

I have built and flown a number of powered ultralights over the years, some of my own design, and have always started out doing lots of crow-hops in them before the actual first flight. The crow-hops have helped me get used to the feel of it, operating the controls, and to get some experience in takeoff, touchdown, roll out, and dealing with mild cross winds, before taking on the whole flight and it's associated risks.

My instructor, nor any one around, have had experience in the particular glider that I own. For various reasons I can't let anyone else fly it first to advise me about how to fly it. So no help there.

So I'm thinking that doing crow-hops in it might be a good idea before my actual first flights in it. They would be by auto-tow, on a 5000' runway, accelerating quickly to the normal touch down speed of the glider, getting no more than 3 feet high. Then right away releasing, pulling on the air-brakes, and landing straight ahead. Of course I would be using a driver who knows about glider towing issues and would get out of the way.

Any thoughts or comments about this idea?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Booker


Did you ask your local instructors about this idea? Or did they tell
you it was a terrible idea already so you're asking for a second
opinion?

Near the ground is a lot more dangerous than way up high. It's not
like there's a shallow end or anything when you're flying! Most first
flights are done by taking a high tow in still air, working out how
the glider flies a long way from anything hard, and then doing a
proper pattern to land.

Find somewhere an instructor familiar with the flying characteristics
of this glider. Find an instructor who is good at helping people to
make transitions. Instructors have a lot of experience with how to
make transitions, even to gliders they don't know much about. That you
are asking this question at all suggests you aren't talking to
instructors. Read the "transition to new gliders" section of textbooks
or manuals. They all suggest the right procedure and syllabus which
your instructor will follow. Crow hops aren't on it.

Soaring is a social and organized sport. The build it yourself, figure
out how to fly it on your own culture of some kinds of powered
ultralights is not how we do things. We have lots of good instructors
and work with them when taking new steps. They can pass on lots of
hard-won experience so you don't have to figure out a good transition
plan on your own.

John Cochrane

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:47:34 AM UTC-6, J-Soar wrote:
I am a newly soloed student pilot, still flying the club's 2-seat trainer.. I'll be moving to the club's single-seater soon. Then I hope to be allowed by my instructor to make solo flights in my own mid-performance sailplane that I bought before starting glider lessons. It was flown by advanced solo students at a far-away club, so should be OK for me to fly.



I have built and flown a number of powered ultralights over the years, some of my own design, and have always started out doing lots of crow-hops in them before the actual first flight. The crow-hops have helped me get used to the feel of it, operating the controls, and to get some experience in takeoff, touchdown, roll out, and dealing with mild cross winds, before taking on the whole flight and it's associated risks.



My instructor, nor any one around, have had experience in the particular glider that I own. For various reasons I can't let anyone else fly it first to advise me about how to fly it. So no help there.



So I'm thinking that doing crow-hops in it might be a good idea before my actual first flights in it. They would be by auto-tow, on a 5000' runway, accelerating quickly to the normal touch down speed of the glider, getting no more than 3 feet high. Then right away releasing, pulling on the air-brakes, and landing straight ahead. Of course I would be using a driver who knows about glider towing issues and would get out of the way.



Any thoughts or comments about this idea?



Thanks in advance,

Jerry Booker

I'll differ somewhat from the others and say what you describe as "crow hops" is a workable idea. Auto towing to lift-off speed and releasing for an immediate flare and touchdown is often used as a way to "feel out" an experimental glider. It gives the pilot a chance to explore critical takeoff and landing behavior at minimum energy in case something goes wrong. It's the glider equivalent of "taxi tests".

If I were your instructor, I'd approve it.

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

John C's comments are well said.

A few extra thoughts of my own.

"crow hops" (near heard that term before but I get it) might equate to a "high speed taxi" which is how the general aviation (GA) powered crowd might take a few hops off the runway to test the new hardware. This might work for self powered aircraft but not for a (non-powered) glider.

Think about a glider on a tow rope behind a tow plane. Having the tow plane pull you to take off speed, then you come back down and both you and the tow plane need to come to a halt in unison. The take off is the trickiest thing to master anyway, these hops you suggest would be REALLY tricky.

Of course there is this aspect of the first flight in a single place glider which very few powered GA pilots have ever experienced. Nearly all of them have flown with someone else in a 2 place before soloing it. Even a single place Pitts has a two place equivalent. The point is that gliders are different beasts with special needs. I don't mean to scare, just to get specialized training.

So, anyway, the common course of action is to take a high tow (5,000 ft AGL) early or late in the day, while pretending to execute landing patterns multiple times as you descend. That and a good briefing of the ship beforehand by the POH and an instructor you trust. Especially if this glider of yours is a CG hook and you have never flown one before.

Good luck and stay safe.

- John DeRosa

On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:
Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

On Aug 23, 11:06*am, Brad wrote:
On Aug 23, 7:41*am, Waveguru wrote:

Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. *Work with an instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. *There are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think. *Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.

Brad

Dick gave specific admonishments to low time pilots not to do their
own test flying. Great advice, imo.

-Evan / T8

"Brad" wrote in message
...

On Aug 23, 7:41 am, Waveguru wrote:
Teaching yourself to ground launch is a bad idea. Work with an
instructor experienced in ground launch and get sighed off first. There
are many things that can go wrong and it’s not as simple as you think.
Have you read about the accident in Cle Elum last year?

Boggs

I've built and test flown 3 sailplanes, one that was our own design.
Each one was initially flight tested by me using the "crow-hop"
method. I would be happy to share with you what my process was and
what was learned from these tests.

You can contact me directly via Bob K thru the hpaircraft website.

Or you can ask the smart guys here who have never built or crow hopped
a sailplane.

Dick Schreder must be spinning in his grave.


http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/HP14-ft.html

Been there, done that!

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder