Frangible bullets

Yet another myth -- that frangible bullets will provide an adequate defense
against terrorists while minimizing the possibility of aircraft damage.

Frangible bullets explode on contact with a target. Good idea if the target
is the skin of an aircraft or the skin of a terrorist. Bad idea if the
terrorist wears thick enough clothing or maybe a layer of Kevlar and the
frangible bullet will not penetrate the protective layer. Meanwhile those
bullet shards will be flying all over the place.

I would prefer that sky marshals be issued armor piercing rounds that will
penetrate bullet-proof vests and make only small holes in airplanes. Perhaps
a mix of the first couple of rounds armor piercing and the rest dum-dums
just to make sure the ******* is dead.

--
Christopher J. Campbell
World Famous Flight Instructor
Port Orchard, WA


If you go around beating the Bush, don't complain if you rile the animals.

:

dum-dums

Actually, when this subject first came up I wondered if "frangible"
simply wasn't a non-gun-freak's idea of a soft-nosed bullet.

What do coppers use in their Police Specials and (increasingly) Nines?
Are they brass-jacketed military rounds or soft-nosed? Seems to me the
latter would be much safer, and not just in hijacking scenarios. Plus
they would be far more likely to disable the bad guy.

I've often been amused by the thought that shooting at a man obliges
the shooter to use a brass-jacketed round, while shooting at a deer
obliges him to use soft-nosed shells (or a lead slug, in the county
where I live).

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver wrote:

I've often been amused by the thought that shooting at a man obliges
the shooter to use a brass-jacketed round, while shooting at a deer
obliges him to use soft-nosed shells (or a lead slug, in the county
where I live).

Hunting ammo for rifles is also brass-jacketed. The difference between it and
military rounds is that the jacket on military rounds covers the entire bullet;
in hunting rounds, the tip is left exposed. This gives the military round more
range and decreases the chance that the round will kill the enemy soldier (as
agreed to by the Hague Convention). The hunting round expands more readily on
contact and is designed to kill as humanely (ie: rapidly) as possible.

Rounds used by the police depend on local policies. The policy of the FBI is to
use rounds deliberately designed to kill as certainly and rapidly as possible.
They are not fully jacketed. The so-called "cop-killer" rounds were designed to
be used by the police to punch through car doors. They're jacketed.

Unjacketed lead bullets are used almost exclusively in some types of black powder
firearms and in shotguns.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Hunting ammo for rifles is also brass-jacketed. The difference between it and
military rounds is that the jacket on military rounds covers the entire bullet;
in hunting rounds, the tip is left exposed. This gives the military round more
range and decreases the chance that the round will kill the enemy soldier (as
agreed to by the Hague Convention). The hunting round expands more readily on
contact and is designed to kill as humanely (ie: rapidly) as possible.

Well, this is just a little bit off, in my experience.

Jacketed rounds aren't meant to less the chance the round will kill
the soldier, but to lessen the damage it does to his insides if he
survives the hit.

And hunting rounds are soft-nosed not to kill rapidly but to ensure
that a leg wound or or non-fatal hit will cripple the deer, so that he
will be tracked and killed by the hunter, rather than escaping into
the next county and dying a slow death from the cold and predators.

I know how hunting rounds are built. I'm sitting less than two feet
from a box of .303 British Core Lokt Soft Point.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
news

Hunting ammo for rifles is also brass-jacketed. The difference between it
and
military rounds is that the jacket on military rounds covers the entire
bullet;
in hunting rounds, the tip is left exposed. This gives the military round
more
range and decreases the chance that the round will kill the enemy soldier
(as
agreed to by the Hague Convention). The hunting round expands more
readily on
contact and is designed to kill as humanely (ie: rapidly) as possible.

Well, this is just a little bit off, in my experience.

Jacketed rounds aren't meant to less the chance the round will kill
the soldier, but to lessen the damage it does to his insides if he
survives the hit.

A FMJ bullet, as required by the Geneva Convestion (or the Hague...I can;t
remember which) does not expand, but therefore it also produces disabling
wounds, thus requireing soldiers to cart their wounded off the battlefield.
Thus one FMJ bullet can take five men out of action -- one wounded, four to
carry the litter.

And hunting rounds are soft-nosed not to kill rapidly but to ensure
that a leg wound or or non-fatal hit will cripple the deer, so that he
will be tracked and killed by the hunter, rather than escaping into
the next county and dying a slow death from the cold and predators.

Completely backwards. You never shoot an animal unless you're farily sure of
an _immediate_ kill (like mere seconds).


I know how hunting rounds are built. I'm sitting less than two feet
from a box of .303 British Core Lokt Soft Point.

Whcih are high expansion bullets...not as good as the current merchandise,
but good for their day (late 50's to early 70's).

Completely backwards. You never shoot an animal unless you're farily sure of
an _immediate_ kill (like mere seconds).

Perhaps I never do, but evidently I am in a small minority, given the
number of guys I've met tracking deer through my woods by the blood
trail.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Cub Driver wrote:

I've often been amused by the thought that shooting at a man obliges
the shooter to use a brass-jacketed round, while shooting at a deer
obliges him to use soft-nosed shells (or a lead slug, in the county
where I live).

Hunting ammo for rifles is also brass-jacketed. The difference between it
and
military rounds is that the jacket on military rounds covers the entire
bullet;
in hunting rounds, the tip is left exposed. This gives the military round
more
range and decreases the chance that the round will kill the enemy soldier
(as
agreed to by the Hague Convention). The hunting round expands more readily
on
contact and is designed to kill as humanely (ie: rapidly) as possible.

An FMJ bullet adds nothing to range. AAMOF, most match ammo is small hollow
point.


Rounds used by the police depend on local policies. The policy of the FBI
is to
use rounds deliberately designed to kill as certainly and rapidly as
possible.
They are not fully jacketed. The so-called "cop-killer" rounds were
designed to
be used by the police to punch through car doors. They're jacketed.

Unjacketed lead bullets are used almost exclusively in some types of black
powder
firearms and in shotguns.

Cast bullets come in tow varieties; soft lead, for black powder arms, and
hard cast (adding antimony and tin to about 8%) that are used for target
shooting. There's a school of thought that says the most damaging bullet you
can shoot at a human body is a hard cast semi-wadcutter.

Frangible bullets are typically made from machined nylon bar stock. If it
hits any flesh, it virtually explodes about an inch or so inside the body.

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
:

dum-dums

Actually, when this subject first came up I wondered if "frangible"
simply wasn't a non-gun-freak's idea of a soft-nosed bullet.

What do coppers use in their Police Specials and (increasingly) Nines?
Are they brass-jacketed military rounds or soft-nosed?

Typically Federal Hyda-Shocks or Wincester SXT's (SXT is the old "Black
Talon" with a different color and different name to throw of the shrills),
the latter which was designed based on FBI specs after the Miami shootout.
The last thing a cop wants, especailly in an urban environment, is a FMJ
bullet.

Seems to me the
latter would be much safer, and not just in hijacking scenarios. Plus
they would be far more likely to disable the bad guy.

You don;t shoot to "disable", you shoot to KILL.


I've often been amused by the thought that shooting at a man obliges
the shooter to use a brass-jacketed round, while shooting at a deer
obliges him to use soft-nosed shells (or a lead slug, in the county
where I live).

Soft nosed bullets are also COPPER jacketed (not "brass").

You don;t shoot to "disable", you shoot to KILL

Everyone here seems to live in a perfect world, where they never miss
the heart. Good on you, lads! For my part, I hope the sky marshal has
a soft-nosed bullet in that gun of his, because it would be just my
luck to be on the plane that wasn't guarded by Dirty Harry.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

You don;t shoot to "disable", you shoot to KILL

Everyone here seems to live in a perfect world, where they never miss
the heart. Good on you, lads! For my part, I hope the sky marshal has
a soft-nosed bullet in that gun of his, because it would be just my
luck to be on the plane that wasn't guarded by Dirty Harry.

Or Harry's predecessor, John Wayne.