Oxygen Generators

Has anyone investigated the use of an oxygen generator rather than carrying an O2 cylinder?

According to this study from sea level up to 18,000 it seems to work. http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get...er= ADA371747

"We conclude that from sea level to 18,000', molecular sieve based O2 concentrators are capable of providing medical grade supplemental O2 for at least 8 hours."

Pricey but for those the fly with O2 every day then over the long term it would be cheaper as there would be no refills. Here is a unit for $3K. http://www.emedstores.com/xpo2-porta...extra-battery/

Might they be less dangerous in an accident? Is battery power an issue?

- John

On 9/23/2013 12:23 PM, JohnDeRosa wrote:
Pricey but for those the fly with O2 every day then over the long term it would be cheaper
as there would be no refills.
Here is a unit for $3K.
http://www.emedstores.com/xpo2-porta...extra-battery/


The devil is in the details! But the specks on that unit say 10,000 feet.

These things are mostly made for airline travel. I don't think we've
ever seen more than about 6,000 feet cabin altitude inside an airliner,
(Yes, I travel with an altimeter) so there is little incentive for the
manufacturer to make them work much higher, or even test them at high
altitudes.

My wife needs to travel with oxygen. We have rented several different
Portable Oxygen Concentrators (POCs) with uniformly good results, and
finally bought our own. Assuming pulse oxygen delivery, we get
excellent battery life on trips.

Try before you buy! You can easily rent these units. Fly one with with
a pulse oximeter ($39.99 at Walmart) to verify that it works for you and
to determine your settings. The settings have a big impact on battery life.

Vaughn

On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:56:34 PM UTC-5, Vaughn wrote:
Fly one with with a pulse oximeter ($39.99 at Walmart) to verify that it works for you...

Vaughn

Actually only $35 at Walmart.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Choicemmed...r-1ct/17325061

On Monday, September 23, 2013 2:39:28 PM UTC-8, JohnDeRosa wrote:
On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:56:34 PM UTC-5, Vaughn wrote: Fly one with with a pulse oximeter ($39.99 at Walmart) to verify that it works for you... Vaughn Actually only $35 at Walmart. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Choicemmed...r-1ct/17325061

Pulse oximeters are poor indicators of O2 saturation for glider pilots. Peripheral (as in fingers)vaso-constriction is common at the temperature and altitudes we fly. I used one for a few years and was over consuming Oxygen in an effort to keep the saturation above 95%. I use a EDS delivery system and consistantly got values of around 86% when above 6000 feet. I actually went to a Pulmonologist to see what, if anything, was wrong with my lungs and found that my lung capacity and ventilation were above normal. So I tossed out the oximeter and just trust the equipment to deliver the right amount of O2. So far so good.

wrote, On 9/26/2013 12:10 PM:
On Monday, September 23, 2013 2:39:28 PM UTC-8, JohnDeRosa wrote:
On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:56:34 PM UTC-5, Vaughn wrote:
Fly one with with a pulse oximeter ($39.99 at Walmart) to verify
that it works for you... Vaughn Actually only $35 at Walmart.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Choicemmed...r-1ct/17325061


Pulse oximeters are poor indicators of O2 saturation for glider
pilots. Peripheral (as in fingers)vaso-constriction is common at the
temperature and altitudes we fly. I used one for a few years and was
over consuming Oxygen in an effort to keep the saturation above 95%.
I use a EDS delivery system and consistantly got values of around 86%
when above 6000 feet. I actually went to a Pulmonologist to see
what, if anything, was wrong with my lungs and found that my lung
capacity and ventilation were above normal. So I tossed out the
oximeter and just trust the equipment to deliver the right amount of
O2. So far so good.

Since I can keep O2 saturation above 95% at even 18000' using the normal
EDS settings, does that mean I have excellent circulation? Or really
good lung function?

It does drop into the 90-95% range sometimes, but that's also when I
realize my breathing is very shallow; i.e., I don't seem to be inhaling
very much after I hear the "poosh" of the EDS oxygen pulse.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

That's amazing at your age Eric. Probably a defective oximeter.

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:49:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Since I can keep O2 saturation above 95% at even 18000' using the normal
EDS settings, does that mean I have excellent circulation? Or really
good lung function?


It could also mean that you breathing too rapidly or deeply (mild hyperventilating). Hyperventilation will dilate your finger blood vessels and RAISE the pulse oximeter saturation number. And hyperventilation will simultaneously constrict your cerebral blood vessels, and thereby LOWER the O2 saturation of the blood going to your brain (thereby inducing mild hypoxia). Vasodilation may also lower the temperature of your core and induce the mental dulling effects of mild hypothermia.

See http://www.danlj.org/~danlj/Soaring/...-p18-20-22.pdf

It does drop into the 90-95% range sometimes, but that's also when I
realize my breathing is very shallow; i.e., I don't seem to be inhaling
very much after I hear the "poosh" of the EDS oxygen pulse.

If you're making any conscious effort to "breath", you may be mildly hyperventilating.

A common way to breath at the correct rate is to talk (or sing) out loud, this distracts you from thinking about your respiration rate. The autonomic nervous system works best without conscious or emotional intervention.

On Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:49:23 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
wrote, On 9/26/2013 12:10 PM:

On Monday, September 23, 2013 2:39:28 PM UTC-8, JohnDeRosa wrote:

On Monday, September 23, 2013 12:56:34 PM UTC-5, Vaughn wrote:

Fly one with with a pulse oximeter ($39.99 at Walmart) to verify

that it works for you... Vaughn Actually only $35 at Walmart.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Choicemmed...r-1ct/17325061





Pulse oximeters are poor indicators of O2 saturation for glider

pilots. Peripheral (as in fingers)vaso-constriction is common at the

temperature and altitudes we fly. I used one for a few years and was

over consuming Oxygen in an effort to keep the saturation above 95%.

I use a EDS delivery system and consistantly got values of around 86%

when above 6000 feet. I actually went to a Pulmonologist to see

what, if anything, was wrong with my lungs and found that my lung

capacity and ventilation were above normal. So I tossed out the

oximeter and just trust the equipment to deliver the right amount of

O2. So far so good.



Since I can keep O2 saturation above 95% at even 18000' using the normal

EDS settings, does that mean I have excellent circulation? Or really

good lung function?



It does drop into the 90-95% range sometimes, but that's also when I

realize my breathing is very shallow; i.e., I don't seem to be inhaling

very much after I hear the "poosh" of the EDS oxygen pulse.



--

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

I think it probably means you are in good health and have good equipment and procedures.

I've experience hyperventilation induced hypoxia. You will feel horrible. Tingling extremities, headache, and yeah... a fingertip pulse ox reading of 92 - 95%.

Unmentioned so far... hypoxia comes with tachycardia. So when you see 92%+ saturation but 110 - 120 pulse rate, there's your confirmation. If you have a decent quality (e.g. Nonin) pulse ox, you see a strong pulse indication, high saturation, pulse below 90 and you feel normal and alert, you are doing it right.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Monday, September 23, 2013 9:23:44 AM UTC-7, JohnDeRosa wrote:
Has anyone investigated the use of an oxygen generator rather than
carrying an O2 cylinder?

The late Les Sebald carried a chemical oxygen generator of the type used on airliners as a backup oxygen source in his HP-14. He worked for United Airlines, and I imagine that he had access to expired units that were out of date but probably still good. I remember seeing that Les's O2 generator was carefully mounted so that the airframe was protected from the rather high heat generated as a byproduct of the chemical reaction that produced the oxygen.

Thanks, Bob K.

JohnDeRosa wrote, On 9/23/2013 9:23 AM:
Has anyone investigated the use of an oxygen generator rather than
carrying an O2 cylinder?

According to this study from sea level up to 18,000 it seems to work.
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get...er= ADA371747

"We conclude that from sea level to 18,000', molecular sieve based
O2 concentrators are capable of providing medical grade supplemental
O2 for at least 8 hours."

Pricey but for those the fly with O2 every day then over the long
term it would be cheaper as there would be no refills. Here is a
unit for $3K.
http://www.emedstores.com/xpo2-porta...extra-battery/

Might they be less dangerous in an accident? Is battery power an
issue?

Not a cost saver for glider pilots that fill their own bottles. I can
fill my 14 cf bottle for $5 from my welding bottle, then get 12 hours
off of it. It would take a lot of refills to pay for the $3000 unit.

I haven't heard of ox cylinders being a danger in glider accidents, so I
don't think the ox generator would help any.

I suspect it might not work well in flights where the cockpit
temperature goes below freezing, but did not look into it.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl