Unnecessary verbiage or sensible redundancy?

I've had a smoldering dispute with a CFI friend of mine for
years about whether to announce (say) "zero-two" or just
"two" when operating at an uncontrolled field with runways
2-20. My friend is of the opinion that the extra "zero" is
superfluous, whereas I've always instinctively said "zero-two"
without really understanding why I do it. It has always "just
seemed right", with a blank in the orderly transmission of
information that cried out to be filled.

This weekend I felt vindicated. As I started to taxi out at
0L7 (two runways, 2-20R and 2-20L), I was not particularly
surprised to hear a Cherokee doing touch-and-gos on runway 2 (the
wind was 5 out of the north). Listening to several calls as I
prepared to depart, I finally caught a "two-zero" -- the fellow,
out of exuberance or lack of currency was letting his finger
slip off the transmit button to give an entirely erroneous and
completely believable false impression of what he was up to.
Turns out he was practicing downwind landings. Add to that
that the airport is right traffic for 20 and left for 02, the potential
for disaster is evident.

So what do instructors teach these days? Do you add the
extra zero or not?

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:07:04 GMT, "Tony Cox" wrote:

So what do instructors teach these days? Do you add the
extra zero or not?


Yep, for exactly the same reason you found out that day. With only
one number you don't know if you've missed part of the transmission.

z

"Tony Cox" tc wrote:
I've had a smoldering dispute with a CFI friend of
mine for years about whether to announce (say)
"zero-two" or just "two" when operating at an
uncontrolled field with runways 2-20.
[snip]
So what do instructors teach these days? Do you
add the extra zero or not?

No, I agree with your CFI-friend. A local uncontrolled airport has runways
3/21. I've never heard anyone announce "zero three" when referring to Runway 3,
nor was I taught to do so by my CFI. Recorded ATIS announcements don't add
zeros either -- they just say, "landing and departing Runways 4 left and
right."

Recently, Tony Cox posted:

I've had a smoldering dispute with a CFI friend of mine for
years about whether to announce (say) "zero-two" or just
"two" when operating at an uncontrolled field with runways
2-20. My friend is of the opinion that the extra "zero" is
superfluous, whereas I've always instinctively said "zero-two"
without really understanding why I do it. It has always "just
seemed right", with a blank in the orderly transmission of
information that cried out to be filled.

This weekend I felt vindicated. As I started to taxi out at
0L7 (two runways, 2-20R and 2-20L), I was not particularly
surprised to hear a Cherokee doing touch-and-gos on runway 2 (the
wind was 5 out of the north). Listening to several calls as I
prepared to depart, I finally caught a "two-zero" -- the fellow,
out of exuberance or lack of currency was letting his finger
slip off the transmit button to give an entirely erroneous and
completely believable false impression of what he was up to.
Turns out he was practicing downwind landings. Add to that
that the airport is right traffic for 20 and left for 02, the
potential for disaster is evident.

So what do instructors teach these days? Do you add the
extra zero or not?

At some point, common sense has to play a part in what you say or omit. I
believe that it is important to eliminate ambiguity, so in the case of
runways that have the potential for confusion, as is the case with "two"
vs. "two zero", I would do as you did, and say "zero two". Note that in
either case, the potential for losing part of the transmission exists, and
if so, the same ambiguity is created as before. But, at least you've done
what you can to reduce the ambiguity.

Neil

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...
I've had a smoldering dispute with a CFI friend of mine for
years about whether to announce (say) "zero-two" or just
"two" when operating at an uncontrolled field with runways
2-20...

The AIM's radio phraseology section doesn't seem to address this question.
However, an example in AIM 4-3-11c2 refers to "runway six right", which is
the phrasing I've always heard from ATC or ATIS at controlled fields. So I'd
vote for "runway two", more for standardization than for concision.

If you follow the standard practice of beginning and ending a unicom or
multicom transmission with the name of the airfield, then your listeners
will not be left wondering if there was an extra digit after the "runway
two" at the end of your transmission, unless they fail to hear the
concluding mention of the airfield.

--Gary

Two part answer. First, runways with single-digit designators (1,2,3, etc)
do not have a preceding zero painted on them. Second, FAA-P-8740-47 "Radio
Communications Procedures and Techniques," which hardly anyone has or has
read, says that if there is more than one digit, each digit should be
spoken, as in "one three" rather than "thirteen." If there is only one
digit, there is no reason to enunciate two digits.

However, don't be surprised to hear a controller say "Climb and maintain one
one thousand, eleven thousand" because there have been some
readback/hearback problems with pure digits.

Bob Gardner

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...
I've had a smoldering dispute with a CFI friend of mine for
years about whether to announce (say) "zero-two" or just
"two" when operating at an uncontrolled field with runways
2-20. My friend is of the opinion that the extra "zero" is
superfluous, whereas I've always instinctively said "zero-two"
without really understanding why I do it. It has always "just
seemed right", with a blank in the orderly transmission of
information that cried out to be filled.

This weekend I felt vindicated. As I started to taxi out at
0L7 (two runways, 2-20R and 2-20L), I was not particularly
surprised to hear a Cherokee doing touch-and-gos on runway 2 (the
wind was 5 out of the north). Listening to several calls as I
prepared to depart, I finally caught a "two-zero" -- the fellow,
out of exuberance or lack of currency was letting his finger
slip off the transmit button to give an entirely erroneous and
completely believable false impression of what he was up to.
Turns out he was practicing downwind landings. Add to that
that the airport is right traffic for 20 and left for 02, the potential
for disaster is evident.

So what do instructors teach these days? Do you add the
extra zero or not?

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...
So what do instructors teach these days?

Instructors teach whatever they think is right. Each one is different.

Do you add the extra zero or not?

When I'm confronted with a single-digit runway, I usually speak both numbers
on the radio. However, I'm sure there have been times when I simply said
one number.

The solution to the "missed number" problem is not to add numbers. After
all, unless you know everyone is doing it (and you never can), you can't
rely on that rule to fill in missing information. For example, generally
going around saying both numbers would not have done a single thing to help
you fill in the blanks in that Cherokee's transmission. You still would
have been left wondering if he was talking about 02 or 20.

The real solution to chopping off transmissions is for pilots to not chop
off their transmissions. One technique that would help a little would be to
include the airport name at both the beginning and ending of the
transmission, but that still leaves the opportunity for a pilot to chop of
the name of the airport. The real solution is for pilots to only speak when
the PTT switch is being held down, and to put a brief pause at the beginning
of the transmission (just a half second or so is perfectly sufficient).

Pete

In article ,
Bob Gardner wrote:
However, don't be surprised to hear a controller say "Climb and maintain one
one thousand, eleven thousand" because there have been some
readback/hearback problems with pure digits.

On Saturday I heard an airliner call in at "one one thousand, ten thousand".
He quickly corrected himself. No amount of redundancy helps if your brain
isn't in gear.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Two part answer. First, runways with single-digit designators (1,2,3, etc)
do not have a preceding zero painted on them. Second, FAA-P-8740-47 "Radio
Communications Procedures and Techniques," which hardly anyone has or has
read, says that if there is more than one digit, each digit should be
spoken, as in "one three" rather than "thirteen." If there is only one
digit, there is no reason to enunciate two digits.


Flying in the UK it is the reverse. The runway will have 02 painted on the
runway and you will be expected to say zero two. Saying "runway 2" would be
confusing and leading people to believe you meant something from 20 to 29.

Funny how it goes.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

When I'm confronted with a single-digit runway, I usually speak both
numbers
on the radio. However, I'm sure there have been times when I simply said
one number.

The solution to the "missed number" problem is not to add numbers. After
all, unless you know everyone is doing it (and you never can), you can't
rely on that rule to fill in missing information. For example, generally
going around saying both numbers would not have done a single thing to
help
you fill in the blanks in that Cherokee's transmission. You still would
have been left wondering if he was talking about 02 or 20.

Not really. He'd have said "Cherokee blah-blah downwind zero", which
fails the consistency check. I probably think he meant 02, but I'd
be sure to ask for a retransmission. Of course, you can postulate bizarre
intermittent transmission problems which fail the test, but I'd wager that
*mostly* one gets a single contiguous transmission, interrupted by being
stepped on perhaps, or as in this case by the simple mistake of the dancing
finger.


The real solution to chopping off transmissions is for pilots to not chop
off their transmissions. One technique that would help a little would be
to
include the airport name at both the beginning and ending of the
transmission, but that still leaves the opportunity for a pilot to chop of
the name of the airport.

And in busy airports, when one can hardly get a word in? Dropping
the airport name at the end would seem to enhance safety & lots
of people tend to do it.

The real solution is for pilots to only speak when
the PTT switch is being held down, and to put a brief pause at the
beginning
of the transmission (just a half second or so is perfectly sufficient).

They could still be stepped on, if not by other pilots then by an ASOS.