Iced up Cirrus crashes

The more of these Cirrus accidents I read about, the more I'm convinced
that Cirrus has a serious marketing/training problem:

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...s/10853388.htm

I'm not convinced there is anything wrong with the aircraft per se.
What seems to be happening is that the aircraft is so capable and
comfortable that it is giving some pilots excess confidence, both in
themselves and the airplane. Cirrus Design's advertising fosters this
confidence.

Cirrus Design has made some moves to improve training of new owners, but
their marketing is still touting the product as providing quantum
improvements in safety, which it manifestly does not.

To be fair, one must consider that this snazzy new design may be
attracting a lot of new flyers. Is Cirrus is selling a disproportionate
number of airplanes to inexperienced pilots?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:

The more of these Cirrus accidents I read about, the more I'm convinced
that Cirrus has a serious marketing/training problem:

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...s/10853388.htm

Before guessing and posting, you should read the whole article and not
only the headline.

Excerpt from the link you posted:

McDonald believes the pilot exercised poor judgment, taking off at night
in poor weather over mountainous terrain.

"I'm very careful about trying to prejudge these kinds of things, but
with the weather data that was out there, and the forecast for icing
conditions, there's no way I can imagine charging into that," he said.


Stefan

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Dan Luke wrote:

The more of these Cirrus accidents I read about, the more I'm convinced
that Cirrus has a serious marketing/training problem:

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...s/10853388.htm

Before guessing and posting, you should read the whole article and not
only the headline.

Excerpt from the link you posted:

McDonald believes the pilot exercised poor judgment, taking off at night
in poor weather over mountainous terrain.

"I'm very careful about trying to prejudge these kinds of things, but
with the weather data that was out there, and the forecast for icing
conditions, there's no way I can imagine charging into that," he said.


Stefan

That is exactly what Dan said...excess pilot confidence which leads to poor
judgment which leads to a dead pilot.

Dave Stadt wrote:

That is exactly what Dan said...excess pilot confidence which leads to poor
judgment which leads to a dead pilot.

That was my take on Dan's post, too.

--
Peter













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Dave Stadt wrote:

That is exactly what Dan said...excess pilot confidence which leads to poor
judgment which leads to a dead pilot.

I've understood Dan's post as Cirrus specific, something to the lines
that the SR22 is difficult to fly and requires more training. Flying
into icing conditions at night is nothing Cirrus specific. But I may be
wrong.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:
I've understood Dan's post as Cirrus specific, something to the lines
that the SR22 is difficult to fly and requires more training.

I've heard that opinion stated by several people including a Cirrus
salesman...though surely some would disagree.

Flying into icing conditions at night is nothing Cirrus specific.

True.

But I may be wrong.

Can't both statements be accurate?

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Dave Stadt wrote:

That is exactly what Dan said...excess pilot confidence which leads to
poor
judgment which leads to a dead pilot.

I've understood Dan's post as Cirrus specific, something to the lines
that the SR22 is difficult to fly and requires more training. Flying
into icing conditions at night is nothing Cirrus specific. But I may be
wrong.

Think of it as analogous to the people that buy a 4WD / SUV then go racing
down an icy road and end up in a ditch.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Matt Barrow wrote:
(( snip ))


Think of it as analogous to the people that buy a 4WD / SUV then go
racing
down an icy road and end up in a ditch.


--
Matt

i like that analogy. i'm sorta suprised noone has gotten on the cirrus
guys' comment that they have a really excellent icing system...the
saying it's only good for an hour or so to find somewhere to land.
huh?? do you suspect they might phrase that a little different in the
sales talk?? i would be interested in knowing how many times that pilot
had made that trip in those "approximate" conditions, relied on that
"excellent" icing system and did just fine.

baron driver i know suggested his excellent icing system was very
valuable in that it gave you something to fiddle with while killing
time waiting for the impact.

dan

Stefan wrote:
That is exactly what Dan said...excess pilot confidence which leads
to poor judgment which leads to a dead pilot.

I've understood Dan's post as Cirrus specific, something to the lines
that the SR22 is difficult to fly and requires more training. Flying
into icing conditions at night is nothing Cirrus specific. But I may
be wrong.

Overconfidence in the airplane's capabilities could've been part of the
go-decision, and that overconfidence could be, in a way, cirrus
specific. I think that was Dan's point.

regards,
Friedrich

--
for personal email please remove "entfernen" from my adress

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:13:20 +0100, Stefan
wrote:

Dave Stadt wrote:

That is exactly what Dan said...excess pilot confidence which leads to poor
judgment which leads to a dead pilot.

I've understood Dan's post as Cirrus specific, something to the lines
that the SR22 is difficult to fly and requires more training. Flying

Part of that is true. It's not difficult to fly, but it's hot and
slippery and does require more training. Sirrus has a very
comprehensive training program. The transition to the SR22 is little
different than transitioning to an A-36 except for the gear. The
speed is far more of an issue than the gear. There appears to be a
set of pilots who think of it as just another fixed gear airplane with
an extra safety factor to keep them out of trouble. It has fixed gear,
but it is not just another fixed gear airplane.

It takes a different mind set to fly a 200 MPH plus airplane than it
does a 130 MPH airplane and it's not something that many adjust to
quickly. You easily have to be thinking twice as far ahead.

Pilots should think of the Cirrus in the same light as an A-36 without
having to think about lowering the gear. The Cirrus is actually a bit
faster than the A-36 and this creates a situation where we have a 130
MPH mind in a 200 MPH airplane and it is not a trivial difference.

Not only does the airplane travel a lot faster, you can get into
trouble a lot faster and it is far less forgiving than a Cherokee,
172, or even 182.

into icing conditions at night is nothing Cirrus specific. But I may be
wrong.

I think it's part of that mind set that thinks of a fixed gear
airplane with a BRS for safety and they use that to rationalize
launching into conditions they'd never go near in a conventional
airplane such as the 172.

When my insurance company wanted 25 hours of dual before carrying
passengers I thought it was a bit much, but it took me most of that to
catch up with the airplane although a lot of it was under the hood.
After that it took another couple hundred hours before I really knew
the airplane. It still teaches me something quite often.

A late friend who was a Bo specialist once asked after observing me,
come down, slow down, and use minimal runway, "Do you think you could
have done that two years ago?" and the answer was, "no".

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Stefan