Chopper Question

ok, I still use MSFS-98, however I cant do anything with the choppers, I
cant even get off the ground before it goes haywire help! I thought it
might be a glitch in the chopper they gave me, so I downloaded another
chopper, still have the same problem, what do I do?
--
RIW Steel Wing, Saterday nights at midnight ET,

On Thursday, in article
01c3a494$c6b0daa0$0400a8c0@soveks-computer
"Sovek" wrote:

ok, I still use MSFS-98, however I cant do anything with the choppers, I
cant even get off the ground before it goes haywire help! I thought it
might be a glitch in the chopper they gave me, so I downloaded another
chopper, still have the same problem, what do I do?

I'm not sure that the default chopper is the easiest to fly, and I've
had better luck with third-party MD-500 variants.

I think a seperate throttle, rather than a knob on a joystick base, and
rudder-pedals, make a huge difference.

Over the years, I've had a lot of experience of flying Flight Simulator
at slow frame rates, and acquired the habit of _slow_ control movements,
which could make a difference. Consider adjusting control sensitivity
and the central dead-zone.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

FS2004 has made a big difference in how helicopters are operated. Get a
book on FS for instructions on how to fly. For example, you tip forward as
if you are going to run into the ground in order to gain speed. Quite a
flip from other planes.

John Stewart


"Sovek" wrote in message
news:01c3a494$c6b0daa0$0400a8c0@soveks-computer...
ok, I still use MSFS-98, however I cant do anything with the choppers, I
cant even get off the ground before it goes haywire help! I thought it
might be a glitch in the chopper they gave me, so I downloaded another
chopper, still have the same problem, what do I do?
--
RIW Steel Wing, Saterday nights at midnight ET,

"John Stewart StewartWeb.org" John@NOSPAM wrote in message
...
FS2004 has made a big difference in how helicopters are operated. Get a
book on FS for instructions on how to fly. For example, you tip forward
as
if you are going to run into the ground in order to gain speed. Quite a
flip from other planes.

Which other planes? None I know of.

Not to imply that controlling a helicopter is anything near the same as
controlling an airplane but, the "push forward on the stick to go faster" is
one of the few ways that helicopters and airplanes are the same.

Pete

Peter Duniho wrote in message ...
"John Stewart StewartWeb.org" John@NOSPAM wrote in message
...
FS2004 has made a big difference in how helicopters are operated. Get a
book on FS for instructions on how to fly. For example, you tip forward
as
if you are going to run into the ground in order to gain speed. Quite a
flip from other planes.

Which other planes? None I know of.

Not to imply that controlling a helicopter is anything near the same as
controlling an airplane but, the "push forward on the stick to go faster" is
one of the few ways that helicopters and airplanes are the same.

Well if you want to KEEP flying your plane instead of flying a field, then
keeping the nose down is generally not a good idea... ;o)

Whereas with a helicopter, if you push the nose down and keep it just slightly
tipped downwards, while making careful increases to the collective, you should
be able to increase speed AND keep your altitude roughly the same.

A good tip I was given was to face into the wind on takeoffs and landings in
helicopters.

If you don't have rudder pedals, then keep the "Realism" slider quite low, or
you most often find yourself spinning rapidly on the spot. Pedals are needed
to keep making the fine adjustments required for flying helos.

And yes - slow, careful, gentle movements are needed.

--
Graeme Porter
-^-_ _
/ [_][_]_:_ Proud owner of a 1978
/| _||_ v Pearl Fiberglass Shell kit
| / \ |
-=/=\\____//=\=jaa "I married Miss right, I just didn't
know her first name was 'Always'"
-- Anonymous

"Anonymous" wrote in message
...
Well if you want to KEEP flying your plane instead of flying a field, then
keeping the nose down is generally not a good idea... ;o)

That all depends. But if the airplane is about the stall, the only way to
avoid "flying a field" is to push on the stick. Keeping the nose down is
*exactly* the good idea.

Whereas with a helicopter, if you push the nose down and keep it just
slightly
tipped downwards, while making careful increases to the collective, you
should
be able to increase speed AND keep your altitude roughly the same.

Note your use of "while making careful increases to the collective".
Likewise, in an airplane, all that's necessary to maintain altitude is to
make "careful increases to power".

Pete

"Peter Duniho" wrote in
:

"Anonymous" wrote in message
...
Well if you want to KEEP flying your plane instead of flying a field,
then keeping the nose down is generally not a good idea... ;o)

That all depends. But if the airplane is about the stall, the only
way to avoid "flying a field" is to push on the stick. Keeping the
nose down is *exactly* the good idea.

Whereas with a helicopter, if you push the nose down and keep it just
slightly
tipped downwards, while making careful increases to the collective,
you
should
be able to increase speed AND keep your altitude roughly the same.

Note your use of "while making careful increases to the collective".
Likewise, in an airplane, all that's necessary to maintain altitude is
to make "careful increases to power".

Forward flight on a helicopter is achieved by having the rotor disk
tipped forward, which has to be done by tipping the body as well (to a
lesser extent with a rigid hub, but still necessary). This is regardless of
the power settings, altitude, rate-of-climb, et cetera.

And you *will not climb* in any fixed wing aircraft with the nose
pointed down. In a helo, this is typical behavior.


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain

"Sovek" wrote in
news:01c3a494$c6b0daa0$0400a8c0@soveks-computer:

ok, I still use MSFS-98, however I cant do anything with the choppers, I
cant even get off the ground before it goes haywire help! I thought it
might be a glitch in the chopper they gave me, so I downloaded another
chopper, still have the same problem, what do I do?


First off, the default Bell 206B in FS98 has some pretty serious
issues with unrealistic instability. Most especially, the body roll with
anti-torque (rudder) input is too pronounced, but there are other problems
as well. I would recommend not using it, or any model that uses its .air
file.

Second, helos *are* hard to fly. They're inherently unstable, largely
like balancing the aircraft on the top of a flagpole, and take a long time
to learn how to fly correctly.

Inputs have a delayed affect, and it needs a soft touch. So
essentially, you need to enter a small amount of stick or rudder input and
get back to neutral *before* it apparently takes affect. If you're still
holding the stick over by the time the bird starts to respond, chances are
you're overcontrolling and will soon pitch it out of control.

You *need* to have separate rudder ability, even if just a twisty-
stick. Disable auto-coordination, it's impossible to fly properly with it -
helos work entirely differently than fixed wings. Also, you may find it
better to set null zones on your joystick/rudder controls to nothing. Boost
sensitvity to max on aileron/elevators, somewhere around 50% for rudder and
throttle.

Get the frame rates as high as you can, at least when learning. Dump
all non-essential secenery details - the most I would have is ground
textures, to see when the aircraft is starting to drift (and it will). It
also helps to have a high visibility control panel (i.e., NOT the Bell). I
also often use the refueling areas as helipads, positioned so that the
pumps are visible, because this gives one of the best references for
aircraft movement.

As you increase throttle in a hover or takeoff, you will induce some
yawing, and this is typical and perfectly realistic, so you need to apply a
little rudder input to counter it. With the Bell, this will also induce
roll (too much), so be ready for that. Gentle touch, wait for it.

The FS models are usually pretty sensitive to translational lift too,
which is the tendency for the aircraft to have more lift in forward motion.
When forward motion halts, the aircraft will begin to descend, so extra
throttle input is needed to control this.

So, taking off. Apply enough throttle to start lifting off, and be
ready for some rudder input as soon as it's airborne. Gentle, bump it and
return. Takes a while to get a feel (less than the real thing, though).
Keep increasing throttle and let the nose drop a bit - this will induce
forward motion, a much more stable condition than hovering. Don't be
concerned if you lose all sight of the horizon as this occurs, as long as
you're increasing throttle and the climb indicator still registers positive
(think of all those fast takeoffs you've seen in action movies - the nose
can drop a hell of a lot, but you're not flying forward yet, you're flying
straight up). As you start serious forward movement, you may then start to
descend slightly, so ease back on the nose now. You'll find it becomes very
stable with airspeed above 35 knots or so. A little steady rudder input is
necessary during higher speed flights to remain straight and level, which
is also realistic (throttle versus drag versus anti-torque).

Landing, hoo boy! Expect a lot of crashes. A wheeled aircraft can
give you a slight edge in landings as you do gentle run-on landings while
getting the hang of it. You can also maintain slight forward airspeed
during descent and lose this just before touchdown, for more stability, but
it will still be hard. Don't aim for anything at first, just line up on a
runway. Lower the throttle to start a gentle descent and keep the nose just
a little below the horizon. You'll be losing airspeed as well - the goal is
to shed both airspeed and altitude at about the same rate so you end up in
a hover at 10' AGL or so. Takes practice. If you start losing control,
increase throttle to abort the approach and go around again. But as you get
close to the ground, lift the nose enough to dump the airspeed (may need to
go quite high) and *be ready* for that loss of lift when you hit zero -
increasing throttle will be necessary so you don't just plummet. Gently on
the stick and rudder, just nudge them to correct the drifting as soon as it
occurs, level the nose as soon as you hit zero, let the throttle down
gently to set it down. If you hold the stick back too long, you may start
backwards flight, which does not register on the airspeed indicator and
will be very hard to see with the nose up.

When you crash, replay it from spot plane position and watch what
went wrong. Sometimes it will seem total nonsense, other times it provides
valuable input ("Ah! I was sliding sideways at touchdown!")

Two reasonably forgiving aircraft to try out for learning: The Hughes
500 model by Ian Standfast (who quite simply made *the best* helicopter
models for FS98) named "mesa_pd.zip", available at www.flightsim.com, and
the MH-60G Pave Hawk model by Phill Stokes, no slouch either in design,
extremely stable, finest touch on the throttle I've ever seen. Filename
"mh60g.zip", but I don't know where I got it, Flightsim doesn't have it.
Try a search, or I'll send it direct if you like.

Ask me nice, and I'll send my US Customs Service repaint with custom
panel and proper sounds ;-).

Overall, be patient, be gentle, and get lots of practice.


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain

ok, first off, I do not have a joystick, thats on my want list, second,
where is a good sight to download a *good* chopper? I did have a steady
hover a couple of feet off the ground, but that fowled up too another
question is, how many of you circle the airport before landing? I never do
and have a good landing record, course some of em were pretty rough :/
--
RIW Steel Wing, Saterday nights at midnight ET,

Al Denelsbeck wrote in article
.. .
"Sovek" wrote in
news:01c3a494$c6b0daa0$0400a8c0@soveks-computer:

ok, I still use MSFS-98, however I cant do anything with the choppers,
I
cant even get off the ground before it goes haywire help! I thought
it
might be a glitch in the chopper they gave me, so I downloaded another
chopper, still have the same problem, what do I do?


First off, the default Bell 206B in FS98 has some pretty serious
issues with unrealistic instability. Most especially, the body roll with
anti-torque (rudder) input is too pronounced, but there are other
problems
as well. I would recommend not using it, or any model that uses its .air
file.

Second, helos *are* hard to fly. They're inherently unstable,
largely
like balancing the aircraft on the top of a flagpole, and take a long
time
to learn how to fly correctly.

Inputs have a delayed affect, and it needs a soft touch. So
essentially, you need to enter a small amount of stick or rudder input
and
get back to neutral *before* it apparently takes affect. If you're still
holding the stick over by the time the bird starts to respond, chances
are
you're overcontrolling and will soon pitch it out of control.

You *need* to have separate rudder ability, even if just a twisty-
stick. Disable auto-coordination, it's impossible to fly properly with it
-
helos work entirely differently than fixed wings. Also, you may find it
better to set null zones on your joystick/rudder controls to nothing.
Boost
sensitvity to max on aileron/elevators, somewhere around 50% for rudder
and
throttle.

Get the frame rates as high as you can, at least when learning. Dump

all non-essential secenery details - the most I would have is ground
textures, to see when the aircraft is starting to drift (and it will). It

also helps to have a high visibility control panel (i.e., NOT the Bell).
I
also often use the refueling areas as helipads, positioned so that the
pumps are visible, because this gives one of the best references for
aircraft movement.

As you increase throttle in a hover or takeoff, you will induce some

yawing, and this is typical and perfectly realistic, so you need to apply
a
little rudder input to counter it. With the Bell, this will also induce
roll (too much), so be ready for that. Gentle touch, wait for it.

The FS models are usually pretty sensitive to translational lift
too,
which is the tendency for the aircraft to have more lift in forward
motion.
When forward motion halts, the aircraft will begin to descend, so extra
throttle input is needed to control this.

So, taking off. Apply enough throttle to start lifting off, and be
ready for some rudder input as soon as it's airborne. Gentle, bump it and

return. Takes a while to get a feel (less than the real thing, though).
Keep increasing throttle and let the nose drop a bit - this will induce
forward motion, a much more stable condition than hovering. Don't be
concerned if you lose all sight of the horizon as this occurs, as long as

you're increasing throttle and the climb indicator still registers
positive
(think of all those fast takeoffs you've seen in action movies - the nose

can drop a hell of a lot, but you're not flying forward yet, you're
flying
straight up). As you start serious forward movement, you may then start
to
descend slightly, so ease back on the nose now. You'll find it becomes
very
stable with airspeed above 35 knots or so. A little steady rudder input
is
necessary during higher speed flights to remain straight and level, which

is also realistic (throttle versus drag versus anti-torque).

Landing, hoo boy! Expect a lot of crashes. A wheeled aircraft can
give you a slight edge in landings as you do gentle run-on landings while

getting the hang of it. You can also maintain slight forward airspeed
during descent and lose this just before touchdown, for more stability,
but
it will still be hard. Don't aim for anything at first, just line up on a

runway. Lower the throttle to start a gentle descent and keep the nose
just
a little below the horizon. You'll be losing airspeed as well - the goal
is
to shed both airspeed and altitude at about the same rate so you end up
in
a hover at 10' AGL or so. Takes practice. If you start losing control,
increase throttle to abort the approach and go around again. But as you
get
close to the ground, lift the nose enough to dump the airspeed (may need
to
go quite high) and *be ready* for that loss of lift when you hit zero -
increasing throttle will be necessary so you don't just plummet. Gently
on
the stick and rudder, just nudge them to correct the drifting as soon as
it
occurs, level the nose as soon as you hit zero, let the throttle down
gently to set it down. If you hold the stick back too long, you may start

backwards flight, which does not register on the airspeed indicator and
will be very hard to see with the nose up.

When you crash, replay it from spot plane position and watch what
went wrong. Sometimes it will seem total nonsense, other times it
provides
valuable input ("Ah! I was sliding sideways at touchdown!")

Two reasonably forgiving aircraft to try out for learning: The
Hughes
500 model by Ian Standfast (who quite simply made *the best* helicopter
models for FS98) named "mesa_pd.zip", available at www.flightsim.com, and

the MH-60G Pave Hawk model by Phill Stokes, no slouch either in design,
extremely stable, finest touch on the throttle I've ever seen. Filename
"mh60g.zip", but I don't know where I got it, Flightsim doesn't have it.
Try a search, or I'll send it direct if you like.

Ask me nice, and I'll send my US Customs Service repaint with custom

panel and proper sounds ;-).

Overall, be patient, be gentle, and get lots of practice.


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain

"Sovek" wrote in
news:01c3a4ec$a2ea3140$0400a8c0@soveks-computer:

ok, first off, I do not have a joystick, thats on my want list,
second, where is a good sight to download a *good* chopper? I did have
a steady hover a couple of feet off the ground, but that fowled up too
another question is, how many of you circle the airport before
landing? I never do and have a good landing record, course some of em
were pretty rough :/

Without a joystick, you won't get anywhere with a helicopter unless
you're unbelieveably good. It takes a lot of control input and, as I said,
separate rudder work, so look for at least a rudder-capable twisty-stick,
or a separate set of pedals. Keyboad or mouse commands aren't too likely to
cut it, and will increase the frustration level unnecessarily.

mesa_pd.zip at www.flightsim.com, login and Search File Library

mh60g.zip at http://sim-stuff.00game.com/military.htm

Circle the airport? Not unless ATC directs it ;-).


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain