Gaggle Soaring

Is there a book or an online guide to flying with other sailplanes? I fly
out of a small glider port where we almost never have more then one glider
in a thermal at a time. Today it happened and I'm a newly licensed pilot.
Since I'm not used to flying with other people in a thermal, I ended up
getting yelled at. I thought we were ok. So I need to ready the common
courtesies. Hopefully someone has something out there wtih examples.
Including very different performing gliders flying together in a thermal,
(ie. Grob 103 & SGS 1-26).
__________________________________________________ ________________ scott
ICQ#: 34312461 Current ICQ status: + More ways to contact me
__________________________________________________ ________________


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Scott,
Talk to the pilots on the ground first. Tell them you'd like to try and join
up. Enter the gaggle in the direction that has been established. Stay in a
position that allows you to see the other gliders and have them see you. Try
not to get directly beneath someone, in case they goof and stall....

It's alot of fun once you get to know and trust the other pilots you're sharing
the thermal with.

Of course if they're snobs and are yelling at you already, you may want to
gaggle with some Hawks instead!

Douglas

Well here's what happened. I came up and entered with the grob, I was in the
1-26. I tried to talk to the grob, but he wasnt responding, he's notorious
for not talking on the radio. I knew he saw me, we had a close call where he
left the thermal then re-entered next to me. He of course was making bigger
circles than I was, and everyone in a while would be looking straight up at
me, i knew where i was, i knew where he was, and there was plenty of space.
He didn't like being beneath of me where i couldnt see him, so he started
yalping. what was i to do if his path and my path added up to that? He's
flown some competition so i assumed he would be comfortable. Is it normal in
flying like that for two gliders circles to force one glider to get under
another? i assume if more radio contact would have been made it would have
been more acceptable?
"DGRTEK" wrote in message
...
Scott,
Talk to the pilots on the ground first. Tell them you'd like to try and
join
up. Enter the gaggle in the direction that has been established. Stay in
a
position that allows you to see the other gliders and have them see you.
Try
not to get directly beneath someone, in case they goof and stall....

It's alot of fun once you get to know and trust the other pilots you're
sharing
the thermal with.

Of course if they're snobs and are yelling at you already, you may want to
gaggle with some Hawks instead!

Douglas

1) circle the same direction.. the first glider in the thermal establishes
the direction of the turn..
2) if only two gliders in the thermal, try to stay on opposite sides, that
way both can see the other, if not, the one in back definitely has to "See
and Avoid", because once behind the 3-9 line, most gliders can not see that
far aft..
3) watch your thermaling speeds.. thermaling at just above stall makes those
below you in the thermal very nervous.. especially if they can see your nose
bob and weave and your speed control or bank control is not steady..
4) the 1-26 can turn tighter than a Grob, stay in or closer to the core of
the thermal and may easily out climb the Grob, try not to turn inside the
Grob and "cut him off", but out here we can thermal a Grob with 45-60degree
bank turns core the thermal.
5) similar performing gliders can share a thermal easier.. every been in the
same thermal, co-altitude with 6 or more 1-26s... just keep your eye on the
1st two in front of you and don't worry about the rest.. ever see the
picture of the "Gaggle", check out the 1-26Assoc web site.
6) many prefer not to share a thermal (close to co-altitude).. unless
everyone has parachutes..
7) if he did not like being beneath you.. (who entered first?).. I believe
those below have a better view of the situation and should yield to those
above... those above can not see well below.. and behind.
8) try not to thermal with another glider where a student is receiving dual
or flying solo for more than a couple of turns .. it gives them a good "look
out" and gets them used to working with other gliders.. but don't over tax
them.. and let them continue with their flight lesson.
9) some people just don't like the radio chatter, especially in areas where
there are a lot of gliders.. just try the Sierra Range or the Great Basin
area in the summer time. Or they may have to pick up a hand held radio and
would just rather listen. Make the call that "#412 is entering the thermal
with 6W" and shut up..
10) if the other glider pilot is upset with you in the same thermal.. he'll
leave.. if he chooses to "rag you out on the radio".. don't answer and "fuel
the charge".. harass him later on the ground for "poor radio discipline" ..
11) bring your glider out to "Goal Strike" (1-26Assoc web page for details)
in June.. and learn what 1-26 Gaggle flying is all about... bring a
parachute.
12) paths adding up? his he overtaking the 1-26? he needs to maneuver away..
just don't take the "I can circle tighter" attitude and cut him off... that
don't make friends
13) thermals are for everyone.. share and share alike.. don't be a butt head
with your flying..
14) talk to a trusted CFIG about the experience.. you may find that no one
else in the club likes the bozo that gave you a hard time..


BT


"Slick" wrote in message ...
Well here's what happened. I came up and entered with the grob, I was in
the
1-26. I tried to talk to the grob, but he wasnt responding, he's notorious
for not talking on the radio. I knew he saw me, we had a close call where
he
left the thermal then re-entered next to me. He of course was making
bigger
circles than I was, and everyone in a while would be looking straight up
at
me, i knew where i was, i knew where he was, and there was plenty of
space.
He didn't like being beneath of me where i couldnt see him, so he started
yalping. what was i to do if his path and my path added up to that? He's
flown some competition so i assumed he would be comfortable. Is it normal
in
flying like that for two gliders circles to force one glider to get under
another? i assume if more radio contact would have been made it would have
been more acceptable?
"DGRTEK" wrote in message
...
Scott,
Talk to the pilots on the ground first. Tell them you'd like to try and
join
up. Enter the gaggle in the direction that has been established. Stay
in
a
position that allows you to see the other gliders and have them see you.
Try
not to get directly beneath someone, in case they goof and stall....

It's alot of fun once you get to know and trust the other pilots you're
sharing
the thermal with.

Of course if they're snobs and are yelling at you already, you may want
to
gaggle with some Hawks instead!

Douglas

This guy is definitely notorious for getting scared easily, or atleast in
the past few years. When I started in this club, he was my instructor. I
guess he had a bad experience or scare with a student and every since then
he's been flaky. After 12 training flights with him he still wouldn't let me
do anything other than, take over at 1k ft. and we would do the different
turns and maybe some thermalling. I worked with another instructor one day
for three flights and that instructor had me doing everything from ground to
ground. I was puzzled because I was like "he's never had me do this before"
the other instructor was amazed cause I picked up on everything quickly.
Thanks for all the help, I think I understand better now what I need to do.
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:rgS6b.47305$Qy4.25233@fed1read05...
1) circle the same direction.. the first glider in the thermal establishes
the direction of the turn..
2) if only two gliders in the thermal, try to stay on opposite sides, that
way both can see the other, if not, the one in back definitely has to "See
and Avoid", because once behind the 3-9 line, most gliders can not see
that
far aft..
3) watch your thermaling speeds.. thermaling at just above stall makes
those
below you in the thermal very nervous.. especially if they can see your
nose
bob and weave and your speed control or bank control is not steady..
4) the 1-26 can turn tighter than a Grob, stay in or closer to the core of
the thermal and may easily out climb the Grob, try not to turn inside the
Grob and "cut him off", but out here we can thermal a Grob with
45-60degree
bank turns core the thermal.
5) similar performing gliders can share a thermal easier.. every been in
the
same thermal, co-altitude with 6 or more 1-26s... just keep your eye on
the
1st two in front of you and don't worry about the rest.. ever see the
picture of the "Gaggle", check out the 1-26Assoc web site.
6) many prefer not to share a thermal (close to co-altitude).. unless
everyone has parachutes..
7) if he did not like being beneath you.. (who entered first?).. I believe
those below have a better view of the situation and should yield to those
above... those above can not see well below.. and behind.
8) try not to thermal with another glider where a student is receiving
dual
or flying solo for more than a couple of turns .. it gives them a good
"look
out" and gets them used to working with other gliders.. but don't over tax
them.. and let them continue with their flight lesson.
9) some people just don't like the radio chatter, especially in areas
where
there are a lot of gliders.. just try the Sierra Range or the Great Basin
area in the summer time. Or they may have to pick up a hand held radio and
would just rather listen. Make the call that "#412 is entering the thermal
with 6W" and shut up..
10) if the other glider pilot is upset with you in the same thermal..
he'll
leave.. if he chooses to "rag you out on the radio".. don't answer and
"fuel
the charge".. harass him later on the ground for "poor radio discipline"
...
11) bring your glider out to "Goal Strike" (1-26Assoc web page for
details)
in June.. and learn what 1-26 Gaggle flying is all about... bring a
parachute.
12) paths adding up? his he overtaking the 1-26? he needs to maneuver
away..
just don't take the "I can circle tighter" attitude and cut him off...
that
don't make friends
13) thermals are for everyone.. share and share alike.. don't be a butt
head
with your flying..
14) talk to a trusted CFIG about the experience.. you may find that no one
else in the club likes the bozo that gave you a hard time..


BT


"Slick" wrote in message ...
Well here's what happened. I came up and entered with the grob, I was in
the
1-26. I tried to talk to the grob, but he wasnt responding, he's
notorious
for not talking on the radio. I knew he saw me, we had a close call
where
he
left the thermal then re-entered next to me. He of course was making
bigger
circles than I was, and everyone in a while would be looking straight up
at
me, i knew where i was, i knew where he was, and there was plenty of
space.
He didn't like being beneath of me where i couldnt see him, so he
started
yalping. what was i to do if his path and my path added up to that? He's
flown some competition so i assumed he would be comfortable. Is it
normal
in
flying like that for two gliders circles to force one glider to get
under
another? i assume if more radio contact would have been made it would
have
been more acceptable?
"DGRTEK" wrote in message
...
Scott,
Talk to the pilots on the ground first. Tell them you'd like to try
and
join
up. Enter the gaggle in the direction that has been established.
Stay
in
a
position that allows you to see the other gliders and have them see
you.
Try
not to get directly beneath someone, in case they goof and stall....

It's alot of fun once you get to know and trust the other pilots
you're
sharing
the thermal with.

Of course if they're snobs and are yelling at you already, you may
want
to
gaggle with some Hawks instead!

Douglas








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On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:22:42 -0400, "Slick" wrote:

Well here's what happened. I came up and entered with the grob, I was in the
1-26. I tried to talk to the grob, but he wasnt responding, he's notorious
for not talking on the radio. I knew he saw me, we had a close call where he
left the thermal then re-entered next to me.

Ignoring what made him leave the thermal... When he re-entered then it
was really his responsibility to take up a safe position.

Here's a same-level entry technique that was described to me by one of
our best pilots. Approach the thermal so you end up circling outside
the glider at your level and at thermalling speed. It will move away
from you because its inside. When you're behind it, tighten your turn
to match its turn radius and you'll find yourself more or less on the
opposite side of the thermal and circling with him. I've used it and
it works for me too.

From then on, adjust your turn to stay opposite - open a little if
you're catching up and vice versa. NEVER point directly at another
glider in the thermal. This way should leave the slower glider turning
tighter. BTW, nobody climbs as well or flies as smoothly in a gaggle
as they do by themselves.

This may not work on the USA due to different customs, but in the UK
we often wave at the other glider. This shows that you see him and
when he waves back you know he's seen you. Consider leaving if you
don't get that acknowledgement or if you don't see his head turning!

Finally, when you leave the thermal, check to the outside and then
make a definite move out - roll out straight when you're pointing the
way you want to go, while putting the nose down and accelerating -
this is a positive indication to others that you're leaving AND gets
you away from the gaggle fairly quickly. Don't just wander out by
opening your turn because this is confusuing to those staying in the
thermal: are you really leaving or are you just looking for a better
thermal core?

I used all of these techniques during my recent first competition
without complaints from other pilots and without any close calls
resulting from them.

HTH

Martin

--
martin@ : Martin Gregorie
gregorie : Harlow, UK
demon :
co : Zappa fan & glider pilot
uk :

Martin Gregorie wrote in message


BTW, nobody climbs as well or flies as smoothly in a gaggle
as they do by themselves.

Martin


I suppose it depend what you mean by a gaggle. 2 is good company, 40
is a crowd. There is no better vario than another competent pilot
co-altitude in the same thermal.


Andy (GY)