Slip to landing on PPG practical test

I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed.

Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip and
landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the PTS says "turning slips
to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices". (See the PTS task
below.) He said this landing does not have to be to a precise point.

R. TASK: SLIPS TO LANDING
REFERENCES: Soaring Flight Manual, Glider Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward, side, and turning
slips to landing, with and without the use of drag devices.
2. Recognizes the situation where a slip should be used to land in a desired
area.
3. Establishes a slip without the use of drag devices.
4. Maintains the desired ground track.
5. Maintains proper approach attitude.
6. Makes smooth, proper, and positive control applications during recovery
from the slip.
7. Touches down smoothly within the designated landing area.


Working through this with one of my instructors today (a very stable day
with absolutely no wind), we had a hard time getting our Blanik L13 to
descend steeply enough even with a complete, full-rudder slip. Even after
extending the downwind, widening the pattern, and slipping all the way from
the base turn, through the base leg, in the final turn and most of the
final, we're still too high. We have to resort to using airbrakes or we
float the entire length of the field. It would seem that we would need to
extend the downwind extraordinarily, or as another instructor suggested,
start the pattern uncomfortably low. We already were entering the 45 at 700'
AGL instead of the usual 1000' .

So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below? No drag devices, all
the way to the ground?

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?

Borrow a Duo-Discus from somewhere and ask your local
FAA inspector to demonstrate a landing without use
of the drag devices. Failing that just ask him to
show you in the Blanik. I suggest you watch from on
the ground, in case he doesn't know when to give up.

At 06:18 31 October 2004, Roger Worden wrote:
I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing
it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is
a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As
he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land
totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes
have failed.

Throughout my training I've practiced many turning
slips to FINAL APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always
ended the slip and
landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the
PTS says 'turning slips
to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices'.
(See the PTS task
below.) He said this landing does not have to be to
a precise point.

R. TASK: SLIPS TO LANDING
REFERENCES: Soaring Flight Manual, Glider Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward,
side, and turning
slips to landing, with and without the use of drag
devices.
2. Recognizes the situation where a slip should be
used to land in a desired
area.
3. Establishes a slip without the use of drag devices.
4. Maintains the desired ground track.
5. Maintains proper approach attitude.
6. Makes smooth, proper, and positive control applications
during recovery
from the slip.
7. Touches down smoothly within the designated landing
area.


Working through this with one of my instructors today
(a very stable day
with absolutely no wind), we had a hard time getting
our Blanik L13 to
descend steeply enough even with a complete, full-rudder
slip. Even after
extending the downwind, widening the pattern, and slipping
all the way from
the base turn, through the base leg, in the final turn
and most of the
final, we're still too high. We have to resort to using
airbrakes or we
float the entire length of the field. It would seem
that we would need to
extend the downwind extraordinarily, or as another
instructor suggested,
start the pattern uncomfortably low. We already were
entering the 45 at 700'
AGL instead of the usual 1000' .

So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below?
No drag devices, all
the way to the ground?

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what
seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?

In article ,
"Roger Worden" wrote:

I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed.

We don't do that here but I think it's a bull**** thing to ask for in a
modern glider, unless your airfield or *huge* or you don't mind bending
the glider because your airbrakes really *have* failed.

It's probably OK in a 2-33 which with the airbrakes closed flies about
like a modern glider with the airbrakes open [1], but it's not exactly a
good idea in a Blanik, let alone anything glass.


[1] ok, I'm exaggerating

--
Bruce | 41.1670S | \ spoken | -+-
Hoult | 174.8263E | /\ here. | ----------O----------

"Roger Worden" wrote in message
om...
I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed.

Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip and
landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the PTS says "turning
slips
to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices". (See the PTS task
below.) He said this landing does not have to be to a precise point.

R. TASK: SLIPS TO LANDING
REFERENCES: Soaring Flight Manual, Glider Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward, side, and
turning
slips to landing, with and without the use of drag devices.
2. Recognizes the situation where a slip should be used to land in a
desired
area.
3. Establishes a slip without the use of drag devices.
4. Maintains the desired ground track.
5. Maintains proper approach attitude.
6. Makes smooth, proper, and positive control applications during recovery
from the slip.
7. Touches down smoothly within the designated landing area.


Working through this with one of my instructors today (a very stable day
with absolutely no wind), we had a hard time getting our Blanik L13 to
descend steeply enough even with a complete, full-rudder slip. Even after
extending the downwind, widening the pattern, and slipping all the way
from
the base turn, through the base leg, in the final turn and most of the
final, we're still too high. We have to resort to using airbrakes or we
float the entire length of the field. It would seem that we would need to
extend the downwind extraordinarily, or as another instructor suggested,
start the pattern uncomfortably low. We already were entering the 45 at
700'
AGL instead of the usual 1000' .

So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below? No drag devices,
all
the way to the ground?

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?



The 'no spoiler' landing is a 2-33 specific maneuver. It is quite difficult
and dangerous to try that with a modern trainer. It needs to be taken out
of the PTS. Until it is removed, examiners need to be educated to the
danger.

I suggest that you take that position with the examiner. If he insists on a
slip to landing, show your good judgement by refusing to do it in the Blanik
and offer to do it in a 2-33 if one is available.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels

I just took my exam a little over a year ago. All my examiner wanted was for
me to use a full slip during either downwind, base , or final, not all
three. I did my slip on downwind and he was fine with it as long as I kept
a normal decent and distance from the field. After I turned base I was
allowed to use spoilers. Of course, that was here in Ohio where I took my
exam.
"Roger Worden" wrote in message
om...
I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed.

Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip and
landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the PTS says "turning
slips
to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices". (See the PTS task
below.) He said this landing does not have to be to a precise point.

R. TASK: SLIPS TO LANDING
REFERENCES: Soaring Flight Manual, Glider Flight Manual.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to forward, side, and
turning
slips to landing, with and without the use of drag devices.
2. Recognizes the situation where a slip should be used to land in a
desired
area.
3. Establishes a slip without the use of drag devices.
4. Maintains the desired ground track.
5. Maintains proper approach attitude.
6. Makes smooth, proper, and positive control applications during recovery
from the slip.
7. Touches down smoothly within the designated landing area.


Working through this with one of my instructors today (a very stable day
with absolutely no wind), we had a hard time getting our Blanik L13 to
descend steeply enough even with a complete, full-rudder slip. Even after
extending the downwind, widening the pattern, and slipping all the way
from
the base turn, through the base leg, in the final turn and most of the
final, we're still too high. We have to resort to using airbrakes or we
float the entire length of the field. It would seem that we would need to
extend the downwind extraordinarily, or as another instructor suggested,
start the pattern uncomfortably low. We already were entering the 45 at
700'
AGL instead of the usual 1000' .

So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below? No drag devices,
all
the way to the ground?

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?






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On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 05:50:43 GMT, "Roger Worden"
wrote:

I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed.

Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip and
landed normally by using the airbrakes. In fact, the PTS says "turning slips
to LANDING, with and without the use of drag devices". (See the PTS task
below.) He said this landing does not have to be to a precise point.

snip



So two questions, for CFIs or examiners or recent test-takers:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task below? No drag devices, all
the way to the ground?

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?


This subject was addressed in the January 2000 FAA publication
"Desginee Update". A slip to complete landing is not required. Here
is the quote from that publication;

“GLIDER SLIPS”
For you folks who operate in the glider community,
the April 1999 Private and Commercial Pilot-Glider
Practical Test Standards include a landing TASK
entitled “Slips to Landing.” In the objective, the
applicant is required to “establish a slip without the
use of drag devices” and then complete a landing.
We have had questions on whether the applicant
should complete the landing, with or without the
use of drag devices.
There was never any intent to require an applicant to
complete the landing without the use of drag
devices. The applicant is only required to
demonstrate a slip (forward or side) without using
drag devices, to position the glider for a safe
landing. Element 6 of the TASK states; “make
smooth, proper, and positive control applications
during recovery from the slip.” Once this has been
accomplished, the maneuver being evaluated is
over. The applicant then lands the glider within the
designated landing area, using drag devices as
appropriate.
Most important for examiner standardization, the
examiner should not add or decrease elements to
this task, or any other task, by asking the applicant
to do more or less than is required.

Here is a link to that publication;
http://av-info.faa.gov/data/designeeupdate/udjan00.pdf

I suggest you print it out and give a copy to the examiner.

At 13:00 31 October 2004, an aspiring private pilot
outlined the like-a-lawn-dart method of using slips
to a landing, and asked:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task...
No drag devices,
all
the way to the ground?

Nope. (This from a DE who's administered over 350 private,
commercial & CFI-G flight tests in 25 years.) I don't
ask any applicant to perform any maneuver I haven't
done recently in the same model aircraft, in the same
conditions and preferably at the same airport used
for the flight test. On a light- or no-wind day, I
doubt I could land most gliders as you describe without
having set up a ridiculously low final approach in
the first place. (Geez, Louise, I'd flunk myself for
that!)

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what
seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?

If you mean slipping like crazy on final with minimal
effect on the glideslope, Yup. And in my case, I quickly
discovered the joys of situational awareness, well-timed
S-turns and strict attention to speed control. (eg:
get past 'Uh-Oh!' and get on with solving the problem.)
The first three rules of flying are and will ever be'
Fly the aircraft! Fly the aircraft! and Fly the aircraft!
(With the implied assumption that you know what's possible/safe
FOR the aircraft in question IN the extant situation.)


Ask your CFI to have a heart-to-heart with the DE.
If he/she is 'hard over' on slipping all the way to
the ground irrespective of aircraft and airport concerns,
find another DE.

Judy

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 05:50:43 GMT, "Roger Worden"
wrote:

I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes have failed.

This requirement is one of the major bull**** things I ever had the
pleasure of reading on RAS.

My advice - get some other FAA examiner. This one obviously doesn't
know anything about gliding.


Throughout my training I've practiced many turning slips to FINAL APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always ended the slip and
landed normally by using the airbrakes.

I bet that this FAA examiner has never done that either in a modern
glider with an L/D over 30 - otherwise he's know that it's going to
take a runway of *at least* 6.000 ft and a sideslip to *very* low
altitude to be able to land without using the airbrakes.




Bye
Andreas

I took my practical flight test in an L-13 Blanik and was required to land
without the use of spoilers.

When I checked the spoilers on the down wind, the examiner informed me that
they were frozen shut. He also picked a spot on the field where he wanted
me to land. I started my slip prior to turning base and continued it on
final making adjustments as necessary to land on the designated spot.

Driggs, Idaho was the location of the examination. The field is a 6,200
feet MSL and is 7,300 feet long. Safety wasn't a concern. The landing spot
picked by the examiner was 1,000 feet from the approach end. I didn't find
it too stressful; however, I am sure the stress level would have been much
greater on a short runway.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/

"Judy Ruprecht" wrote in message
...
At 13:00 31 October 2004, an aspiring private pilot
outlined the like-a-lawn-dart method of using slips
to a landing, and asked:

1. Is this the common interpretation of the task...
No drag devices,
all
the way to the ground?

Nope. (This from a DE who's administered over 350 private,
commercial & CFI-G flight tests in 25 years.) I don't
ask any applicant to perform any maneuver I haven't
done recently in the same model aircraft, in the same
conditions and preferably at the same airport used
for the flight test. On a light- or no-wind day, I
doubt I could land most gliders as you describe without
having set up a ridiculously low final approach in
the first place. (Geez, Louise, I'd flunk myself for
that!)

2. Have you experienced/how would you deal with what
seems to be a rather
low drag ratio even with a full-rudder slip?

If you mean slipping like crazy on final with minimal
effect on the glideslope, Yup. And in my case, I quickly
discovered the joys of situational awareness, well-timed
S-turns and strict attention to speed control. (eg:
get past 'Uh-Oh!' and get on with solving the problem.)
The first three rules of flying are and will ever be'
Fly the aircraft! Fly the aircraft! and Fly the aircraft!
(With the implied assumption that you know what's possible/safe
FOR the aircraft in question IN the extant situation.)


Ask your CFI to have a heart-to-heart with the DE.
If he/she is 'hard over' on slipping all the way to
the ground irrespective of aircraft and airport concerns,
find another DE.

Judy

I must be missing something.

During a BFR a year or so ago I was asked to fly the
aircraft - a Grob 103 - without the benefit of each
of the controls (one at a time!). The no-airbrake landing
worked out fine. Yes you have to set up a low approach
and use slips, but the key thing for successfully executing
the maneuver is to point the nose at the runway threshold
(or just short) and let the speed build up. Higher
speed plus a sideslip produces a fair amount of additional
drag, even on a 'modern' glider. As I remember, we
got up to about 80 knots, leveled out at about 20 feet
and held the slip to bleed off airspeed until just
before the flare. This way you don't have to turn final
at 50 feet to make the landing spot. I'm not fond of
S-turns on final as I know of at least one high-time
pilot who died in spin doing this.

I'd rather practice all of this ahead of time when
I know I have a backup plan rather than having to do
it perfectly the first time in an emergency. Whether
it should be part of a practical exam for a private
ticket is debatable I suppose, but I highly recommend
that all glider pilots practice for jammed controls
every so often.

9B


At 17:54 31 October 2004, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 05:50:43 GMT, 'Roger Worden'
wrote:

I'm preparing for my Private test, and in discussing
it with the local FAA
examiner, he indicated that one item on the test is
a landing with no drag
devices, using only a turning and forward slips. As
he explained it, the
task in the PTS is to demonstrate the ability to land
totally WITHOUT
airbrakes, to simulate a landing wherein the airbrakes
have failed.

This requirement is one of the major bull**** things
I ever had the
pleasure of reading on RAS.

My advice - get some other FAA examiner. This one obviously
doesn't
know anything about gliding.


Throughout my training I've practiced many turning
slips to FINAL APPROACH
(to lose altitude) without airbrakes, but I have always
ended the slip and
landed normally by using the airbrakes.

I bet that this FAA examiner has never done that either
in a modern
glider with an L/D over 30 - otherwise he's know that
it's going to
take a runway of *at least* 6.000 ft and a sideslip
to *very* low
altitude to be able to land without using the airbrakes.





Bye
Andreas