Beech Sundowner/Sierra PIREP wanted

Saw an interesting article in Private Pilot mag about the Sierra.
Roomy & stable....sounds like my kind of plane.
Prices look decent; and the FG Sundowner even cheaper (and more
insurable for a 150-hour pilot than the RG Sierra)

Looking for something that can handle two large adults + baggage and
maybe the occasional friend or two. IFR capable, tho I don't plan on
a lot of IMC til I get more comfy with it! Something I can take out
for 100-500 mile trips, 2-3 hour legs (because of MY legs )

I have not actually seen one...and wont be available to to go to
Dayton for the big Beech flyin. So everything I know about 'em is
from research on the www.

Here is the score as far as I can see:

PLUSes:
-Roomy
-IFR stable
-Reliable
-Two doors
-Uses a common engine; can get that fixed anywhere.
-Built like a tank

MINUSes (as I hear)
-Not as fast as other a/c with similar horsies???
-Parts and STC availability not quite as good as a 172 or PA28???
-Short field performance not outstanding???
-Mediocre climb performance???
-Prone to nose gear damage???
-Not recommended for grass strips???
-Not as quiet as others???

Things I don't know
-Operating costs
-Common problems or high failure rate parts
-Corrosion problems?

Interested to hear from those who own or have flown them.
What's the real scoop?

Thanks!

--Don

Don Byrer
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB
Instrument Pilot Commercial/CFI Student
PP-ASEL 30 Jan 2005 "-IA" 25 Mar 2005
kj5kb_at_hotmail.com

Interested to hear from those who own or have flown them.
What's the real scoop?

lots of people can afford the plane
but not too many can afford the parts

Go to Aircraft Spruce and look up throttle cables, mixture cables, fuel
selectors, door latches etc.
Then look up the same for Cessna 172 & do your own comparison.

HTH

Tony--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

"Don Byrer" wrote in message
...
[...]
Interested to hear from those who own or have flown them.
What's the real scoop?

Funny you should ask. Just today, I hitched a ride in a friend's Sundowner
(again...I've flown with him many times).

I would say that all of your pros are on the mark. As far as the cons, I
think the real question is how it compares to a C172 or Cherokee. IMHO, the
aspects where those airplanes could be considered superior aren't
significant enough to scare you off a Sundowner. If you want a strong,
stable airplane in the same basic performance class as the C172 or Cherokee,
the Sundowner is a fine choice.

As far as some of the specific cons you mention: my friend's Sundowner might
not be as fast as a C172 with a new engine and a cruise prop, but it's
certainly as fast as many C172s I've flown.

Short field performance? I'm not aware of a single airplane in that
performance class that could be considered an "outstanding" short field
airplane.

Climb performance? No worse than a 172...certainly not stellar, but nothing
to worry about IMHO.

Nose gear damage? Don't know why that would be, but I don't know much about
it. The nose gear on a Sundowner certainly *looks* sturdier than that found
on similar airplanes.

Grass strips? Again, no worse than similar airplanes.

Not as quiet? I haven't made a direct comparison, but I don't find the
noise level offensive. Nor does it *seem* significantly louder than a C172
(though, in hindsight maybe it is a little louder). If noise is a concern,
your best answer is to get a decent ANR headset, and choose an airplane that
is otherwise suitable.

I don't know things like operating costs, common problems, or corrosion
issues. However, my friends has owned his airplane for five years or so,
and hasn't run into anything unusual yet, nor does it sound like he spends
any more on this airplane than he would on something similar.

IMHO, probably the only significant issue that might concern me as a
potential owner is that keeping the airplane within the CG limits is more
complicated than for a C172 (don't know about the Cherokee, since I don't
fly those). That is, you actually have to think about it, taking into
account fuel loading, passengers, and adjusting baggage or other ballast as
necessary. If that's something you don't want to deal with, you should
probably stay away from a Sundowner. I don't personally think it's a big
deal (I have similar issues with my own airplane), but some people would be
turned off by that.

Some idiosyncratic things about the Sundowner include really big switches
(there are two huge switches for the master, rather than the reasonably
sized split switch found on most smaller airplanes). The Sundowner has a
"placeholder" gear lever (for training purposes). It has a really big power
console for such a little plane (which I think is kind of neat,
actually...real power levers, just like you find in the twins and jets,
instead of little push/pull knobs like most airplanes have). There are a
few other minor things like that, but IMHO those are all just part of the
charm of the airplane. It's different, and that makes it just a little
neater.

I guess to some extent, that's what it comes down there. There are maybe
one or two things that are different enough that someone might choose a C172
instead. But if those differences aren't a big deal to you, the real
question is whether you want to fly something everyone else flies, or do you
want to fly something that's a little more unique. My friend hasn't run
into any serious issues with respect to maintenance for having something
different, but he gets the "benefit" of having a plane that stands out in a
crowd just a bit more. I put "benefit" in quotes, because not everyone
would think that's actually a good thing.

Pete

The Sundowner and Sierra (as well as the Sport) all are descendants of the
Musketeer.
The 150HP Musketeer became the Sport.
The 180HP became the Sundowner.
The 200HP Mouse became the Sierra.
I think the entire Musketeer line is undervalued and provides some of the
best bang for the buck.
I have a 1966 A23-24 Super III, which was the 200HP, fixed gear Musketeer.
This is (IMHO) the best mix of the Sierra and Sundowner.
It has the IO-360. Great engine.
It is roooooomy. Mine has 6 seats. Some Sierras do too.
Useful load is about the same or more than a 172.
Mine is 960+ lbs. I burn 9.5 gal/hr and have 60 gallon tanks.

All my numbers seem to be about 5KTS faster than a 172 (I trained in a 172).
I rotate, cruise, and approach 5KTS faster.

The view out of the bubble windscreen is the best I've ever seen.
When straight and level, it looks like you're nose-down. Takes a while to
get used to.

I really like the trailing link gear. It makes all landings seem better
than they are ;-)

I've been so happy with mine, and I would highly recommend anyone to try one
out.
You might also check out the following type groups:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/musketeermail
http://www.beechaeroclub.com

I haven't notices any large expenses to date.
I have done some mods, but they were Lycoming related, not Beech.
The planes are built like a rock.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 22:22:01 -0400, Don Byrer wrote:

Hi Don,

I own a 76 Sundowner and found the following (interjected in your summation
below)

Saw an interesting article in Private Pilot mag about the Sierra.
Roomy & stable....sounds like my kind of plane.
Prices look decent; and the FG Sundowner even cheaper (and more
insurable for a 150-hour pilot than the RG Sierra)

Bought mine right after I got my VFR ticket. Insurance through AOPA was
about $1000.00. After getting my IFR ticket, it dropped to $900.00. I
have it insured for 48K hull value after my engine overhaul.

Looking for something that can handle two large adults + baggage and
maybe the occasional friend or two. IFR capable, tho I don't plan on
a lot of IMC til I get more comfy with it! Something I can take out
for 100-500 mile trips, 2-3 hour legs (because of MY legs )

Mine is IFR capable, and I don't hesitate to go in actual. My last trip
from Ohio back to MS, I flew 2.5 in IMC at night without any problems. I
burn about 10 GPH, and it has a range of about 5 hours, but I usually do 3
hour legs as my bladder don't last much longer then that. I have been to
Myrtle Beach, Daytona Beach, Owensboro KY, Lawrenceville, IL and
Stuebenville OH in the past year in my Sundowner, so I would think it's
great for the long hauls. I am based in Madison, MS (MBO).

PLUSes:
-Roomy
-IFR stable
-Reliable
-Two doors
-Uses a common engine; can get that fixed anywhere.
-Built like a tank

Agree with all the above.

Mine has a Lycoming AK4, which is common, but when it came for overhaul, it
is not the most common Lycoming engine. It is 180 HP. After overhaul, so
far, the only thing done has been my oil changes and analysis. The plane
is built like a tank.

MINUSes (as I hear)
-Not as fast as other a/c with similar horsies???

I plan 110 knots, which has been comparable to a Cessna 172.

-Parts and STC availability not quite as good as a 172 or PA28???

I have not had any problems getting parts (better yet, my A&P has not had
any problems).

-Short field performance not outstanding???

I regularly land on a 2,900 foot runway, so not so sure I would agree with
this. Not sure how short is short to you.

-Mediocre climb performance???

On cold days, I can easily get 1000 fpm climb with four passengers.

-Prone to nose gear damage???

Nope, what I think you are thinking of is the porposing tendancies of a
Sundowner. The CG is very forward, and landing speed is critical. If you
bounce, it will porpoise. Landing struts are built like tanks.

-Not recommended for grass strips???

Can't answer here, though I'd be concerned about any low wing picking up
turf underneath.

-Not as quiet as others???

Very true, compared to other planes I have flown.

Things I don't know
-Operating costs

Highly dependant on your flying. For me, I fly 2 times a week, average 20
hours a month. Other then oil changes at about $200.00, no other major
operating costs (other then fuel). I had a fuel sender gasket compromised
due to cold weather. Other then a 50 cent part, and 1.5 hours labor,
nothing unusual noted.

-Common problems or high failure rate parts

I had a very underused plane, which was not good. My first annual was
close to 5K, but now, it runs about 2K. It took me a year, but I have
every button, knob and switch working. I had to replace the vacuum pump,
and turn coordinator, due to the lack of usage before my ownership. My
plane had only 1960 hours on the airframe before I bought it, and sitting
on the ramp is very bad on parts that require movement for lubrication (I.E
vacuum pump).

-Corrosion problems?

Wing spar is a known corrosion problem to be on the look out. Flaps need
constant lubrication (two times a year) or they will remain in the down
position when checking flaps on runup time. No biggie, as some people let
the prop wash raise them, but I want mine to retract without propwash.

Interested to hear from those who own or have flown them.
What's the real scoop?

I love my Sundowner. It's not a speed demon, but for me, 110 knots is more
then fast enough for me. Very affordable plane, and once you give it some
TLC, it is a very reliable plane. After overhaul, engine starts within 2
turns of the prop.

Hope this helps!

Allen

Don,

It's been about 15 years since I was in a club with a couple Sierras, but
here's my recollections:

"Don Byrer" wrote in message
...
Saw an interesting article in Private Pilot mag about the Sierra.
Roomy & stable....sounds like my kind of plane.
Prices look decent; and the FG Sundowner even cheaper (and more
insurable for a 150-hour pilot than the RG Sierra)

My preference would be to stick with the Sundowner. You're right that the
insurance will definitely be higher for the RG Sierra. Maintenance will
also be higher. The few extra knots you get with the Sierra comes at the
cost of weight and complexity which add to your expenses.

Looking for something that can handle two large adults + baggage and
maybe the occasional friend or two. IFR capable, tho I don't plan on
a lot of IMC til I get more comfy with it! Something I can take out
for 100-500 mile trips, 2-3 hour legs (because of MY legs )

Either one will do an excellent job in this realm. The RG might save you
30-45 minutes over that 500 miles.

PLUSes:
-Roomy
-IFR stable
-Reliable
-Two doors
-Uses a common engine; can get that fixed anywhere.
-Built like a tank

Good list. The first two are very noticable.

MINUSes (as I hear)
-Not as fast as other a/c with similar horsies???
-Parts and STC availability not quite as good as a 172 or PA28???
-Short field performance not outstanding???
-Mediocre climb performance???
-Prone to nose gear damage???
-Not recommended for grass strips???
-Not as quiet as others???

Some truth here.
For the Sierra, it's heavier than most with the same HP, so you lose some
speed; but that higher wing loading is what gives you that IFR stability.
Parts? It's a Beechcraft, so you'll pay for the airframe stuff that's
unique. As you pointed out, the engine's common.
Performance? For the Sundowner, not significantly different than your
average 172 or PA28. The Sierra is about 10% heavier, with 10% extra
horses. That means climb is about the same and ceiling is higher, but
you'll see higher V speeds and longer ground rolls.
Nose gear damage? For the Sierra, that probably comes from the fact many
were used for training (It's about the cheapest high performance [FAR
definition only], complex aircraft around.) It doesn't like being landed on
the nose gear, but then neither does any other airplane. We had one
instance in our club where someone landed a Sierra on the nose gear and bent
metal. But then we had the same thing happen on a 172.

I'd look to a mechanic with familiarity with Beech. Also check out type
clubs. Here's one: http://www.beechaeroclub.org/

Gerry

Where are you located, Don? I'm certain we can find somebody nearby for
a demo ride. The BAC group has members all over the place.

I'm in NJ and suspect you are in the great southwest based on the
5-land call. Let me know if I can help you find a Sundowner / Sierra
driver in your area.

Jack
Sundowner - N6363U
N85 - Pittstown NJ

On 11 Apr 2005 10:08:25 -0700, "
wrote:

Where are you located, Don? I'm certain we can find somebody nearby for
a demo ride. The BAC group has members all over the place.

I'm in NJ and suspect you are in the great southwest based on the
5-land call. Let me know if I can help you find a Sundowner / Sierra
driver in your area.

Thanks, Jack,
That would be great.
I'm in Cleveland OH (5-call is from OK-former QTH)

I'd be happy to help with expenses if you know of anyone in the area.
email is

Don Byrer
Instrument Pilot Commercial/CFI Student
Electronics Technician, RADAR/Data/Comm @ CLE
Amateur Radio KJ5KB

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."