Hard Starting Cold Continental Engines

My Seneca V (Continental TSIO-360-RB) has been very hard to start
during cold weather for the past few winters I have owned it. Besides
burning out several starters I have tried tune-ups prior to winter and
installing the Slick Shower of Sparks ignition system. All have helped
a little but no dramatic improvements. My mechanic has been researching
this issue (he also has another Seneca V o nthe field with similar
problems) and has come up with a somewhat obscure Continental Service
Instruction Letter that references cold weather starting and discusses
New Cylinder/Induction Port Drain Connections. This involves 24 new
drains ($200 ea.) and before I make an investment on such a vague SIL I
thought I would seek others experience. Is anyone familiar with this
and care to share experience?

My Seneca V (Continental TSIO-360-RB) has been very hard to start
during cold weather for the past few winters I have owned it. Besides
burning out several starters I have tried tune-ups prior to winter and
installing the Slick Shower of Sparks ignition system.

We had this problem with a Lycoming IO360 and regapping the plugs helped
quite a bit. Maybe new plugs might be in order. Of course a good pre-heat
is also a very big help.

Kobra

On 28 Nov 2005 10:44:51 -0800, "M.E. Borner"
wrote:

My Seneca V (Continental TSIO-360-RB) has been very hard to start
during cold weather for the past few winters I have owned it. Besides
burning out several starters I have tried tune-ups prior to winter and
installing the Slick Shower of Sparks ignition system. All have helped
a little but no dramatic improvements. My mechanic has been researching
this issue (he also has another Seneca V o nthe field with similar
problems) and has come up with a somewhat obscure Continental Service
Instruction Letter that references cold weather starting and discusses
New Cylinder/Induction Port Drain Connections. This involves 24 new
drains ($200 ea.) and before I make an investment on such a vague SIL I
thought I would seek others experience. Is anyone familiar with this
and care to share experience?

I'm thinking that your Seneca V's TCM engine has a RSA/Bendix
injection system instead of the "classic" TCM fuel injection. If it
does, it needs to be primed/started like an injected Lycoming.

Can I ask how you what procedures you are currently using?

TC

I am not sure what type of injection system I have but it definitely is
fuel injected. I too think (am hoping) it is technique related,
certainly the least expensive route to a solution. I am leery of
burning up another starter while trouble shooting technique. My
un-preheated cold weather/cold engine starting technique is very
similar to my warm weather/cold engine technique and is as follows:

throttle open 1/4 inch
mixture full rich
electric fuel pump/prime on
wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
crank

In warm weather it starts right away. Colder weather takes 4-5 seconds
of cranking before it starts. Cold weather takes major cranking and no
fuel pump after the first attempt. Sometimes I get it going and
sometimes I don't. Both engines are very difficult and uncertain,
although the right engine is much more cooperative than the left.

In article .com,
"M.E. Borner" wrote:

I am not sure what type of injection system I have but it definitely is
fuel injected. I too think (am hoping) it is technique related,
certainly the least expensive route to a solution. I am leery of
burning up another starter while trouble shooting technique. My
un-preheated cold weather/cold engine starting technique is very
similar to my warm weather/cold engine technique and is as follows:

throttle open 1/4 inch
mixture full rich
electric fuel pump/prime on
wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
crank

In warm weather it starts right away. Colder weather takes 4-5 seconds
of cranking before it starts. Cold weather takes major cranking and no
fuel pump after the first attempt. Sometimes I get it going and
sometimes I don't. Both engines are very difficult and uncertain,
although the right engine is much more cooperative than the left.

Which priming system?
My experience is with the Turbo Arrow IV.
There are two different priming system for that engine.

Dude, the T-Arrow IV left the factory with a Rajay turbo with a bolt
screwed into the tailpipe for pseudo boost control-a V's got an
Airesearch turbo with a automatic waste gate. You've got TCM "classic"
fuel injection, a V's got RSA/Bendix/Precision Airmotive fuel
injection.

I don't think that the V's installation has the push-to-prime "cold
start kit" as an option...

The cold start kit option on your engine was a set of fine-wire
sparkplugs and a solenoid valve with a couple extra hard lines that
allowed fuel to be sprayed directly into the front end of the LH and RH
induction pipes.

TCM "classic" injected engines are typically started with the mixture
control at "full rich", RSA/Bendix injected engines are typically
started with the mixture at ICO.

regards;

TC

M.E. Borner wrote:
I am not sure what type of injection system I have but it definitely is
fuel injected. I too think (am hoping) it is technique related,
certainly the least expensive route to a solution. I am leery of
burning up another starter while trouble shooting technique. My
un-preheated cold weather/cold engine starting technique is very
similar to my warm weather/cold engine technique and is as follows:

throttle open 1/4 inch
mixture full rich
electric fuel pump/prime on
wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
crank

In warm weather it starts right away. Colder weather takes 4-5 seconds
of cranking before it starts. Cold weather takes major cranking and no
fuel pump after the first attempt. Sometimes I get it going and
sometimes I don't. Both engines are very difficult and uncertain,
although the right engine is much more cooperative than the left.


I believe you are WAY under-priming your engines, when they are
un-preheated. Next time, try:

Throttle, Wide Open
Mixture, Full Rich
Fuel Pump, Prime for 6-10 secs, then Off
Throttle to 1/4 inch
Crank

Be ready to turn the fuel pump back on, if the engine starts to die
after it starts, otherwise, just leave it off.

As a side note, the older Senecas, with the TCM fuel injection and a
Cold Start kit, were unstoppable in the winter. You couldn't *not*
start those engines, no matter how cold they got. I don't have any
experience with the RSA system mated to a Continental 360, but the above
technique works very well on any injected Lycoming I've tried.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
N92054

throttle open 1/4 inch
mixture full rich
electric fuel pump/prime on
wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
crank


I agree...you are NOT priming enough. In the cold weather you can prime
twice as long as in warm weather or even longer. Also, don't forget that
the plugs can ice over (or so I am told) and this will cause the plug not to
spark. Old wife's tale? Possibly but it makes sense to me.

Kobra

On 29 Nov 2005 05:55:17 -0800, "M.E. Borner"
wrote:

throttle open 1/4 inch
mixture full rich
electric fuel pump/prime on
wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
crank

Definitely not enuff fuel for a cold start.

In warm weather it starts right away. Colder weather takes 4-5 seconds
of cranking before it starts. Cold weather takes major cranking and no
fuel pump after the first attempt. Sometimes I get it going and
sometimes I don't. Both engines are very difficult and uncertain,
although the right engine is much more cooperative than the left.

What does "the book" say for a cold start?

I learned to verify power and mixture levers aft, boost pump on, power
& mixture full forward for 2-3 (or 3-4) seconds, pull back. Crack the
throttle, crank the engine, apply mixture lever as needed once the
engine starts running. Was taught never to crank an RSA engine with
the mixture out of ICO.

If it's colder, the levers need to stay ahead longer. The trick is to
get it rich enuff to fire, but not excessively rich. If it doesn't
fire almost immediately, or fires and dies, you just need to add a
little more fuel. If you flood it, you're screwed.

You just need to figure out how much fuel your particular pair of
engines need to start with varying OAT's

TC

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:47:18 -0900, Scott Skylane
wrote:

snip

As a side note, the older Senecas, with the TCM fuel injection and a
Cold Start kit, were unstoppable in the winter. You couldn't *not*
start those engines, no matter how cold they got. I don't have any
experience with the RSA system mated to a Continental 360, but the above
technique works very well on any injected Lycoming I've tried.

Heh. Mash the button until the plenum drains start ****ing blue into
the snow and start the mutha up. BTDT.

TC