Angry [More Info]

Hi,

Unfortunately some folks have degraded the initial thread to some political
rambling, so I figured I'd post this to a new thread.

As I predicted:
1. "non-instrument rated private pilot"
2. "Night instrument meteorological conditions prevailed"
3. "a flight plan was not filed for the cross-country flight"
4. "As the airplane proceeded east from the departure airport, the pilot
reported that he was having trouble maintaining outside visual contact and
controlling the airplane and wanted help getting back to the airport."

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...27X02016&key=1

I am a CFI-I and I wouldn't have taken my wife and two kids up on that
flight in those conditions.

Hilton

Hilton wrote:
I am a CFI-I and I wouldn't have taken my wife and two kids up on that flight in those conditions.

Sounds like pilot error from the start. :^)

The Monk

Hilton wrote:

I am a CFI-I and I wouldn't have taken my wife and two kids up on that
flight in those conditions.

Are you referring to the weather/night conditions or are you stating you
wouldn't fly under all four of the accident flight circumstances you
listed?

If the latter, I agree (although I am not a CFI).

--
Peter

In article ,
"Peter R." wrote:

Hilton wrote:

I am a CFI-I and I wouldn't have taken my wife and two kids up on that
flight in those conditions.

Are you referring to the weather/night conditions or are you stating you
wouldn't fly under all four of the accident flight circumstances you
listed?

If the latter, I agree (although I am not a CFI).

The area in question has hills that go up to 4000 ft, from approximately
sea level.

Scud running over flat terrain by day is one thinh; scud running ovver
flat terrain at night is another; scud running in mountains by day is
dicey; at night it is suicide.

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.

Orval Fairbairn wrote in
news
Are you referring to the weather/night conditions or are you
stating you wouldn't fly under all four of the accident flight
circumstances you listed?

Lately, we've had more than our share of accidents in the SF Bay
Area.

Earlier this month, the person who purchased our Piper Lance several
years ago left Reid-Hillview at about 10:30 AM for a trip to Visalia
(in the San Joaquin Valley). The visibility in Visalia at the time
was less than 1/4 mile with a ceiling of 100. He held Comm/ME/Inst
but both he and his wife died in the crash and ensuing fire.


--

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 22:00:28 GMT, "Hilton" wrote:

I am a CFI-I and I wouldn't have taken my wife and two kids up on that
flight in those conditions.

I did not see the original thread.

What, exactly, are you implying?

Are you implying you would not feel comfortable flying night IMC, which is
what is described in the NTSB report? Or are you implying something else?

I found it interesting to do a little research on the web concerning the
weather at WVI and at FAT (and SNS and RHV) for times bracketing the
accident. (The report says he was going to Fresno).

Given the reported weather, it seems to me as if an IFR flight by a
competent IFR pilot would be reasonable, but perhaps not in a C172 if there
were icing conditions at the MEA at that time.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On 2005-12-29, Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
Are you implying you would not feel comfortable flying night IMC, which is
what is described in the NTSB report? Or are you implying something else?

I can't (obviously) speak for Hilton but there is night IMC, and then
there is other night IMC.

As a preamble - but I find it odd that in training, huge emphasis is put
on instrument approaches. You do approach after approach after approach
as if it's the real thing, but not so many departures. Personally, I
find the approach a piece of cake. You have time to mentally prepare
yourself for it as you start getting close to your destination and
assess what's happening, and everything happens relatively slowly.
You're already in the 'IFR groove' so to speak when you're starting
the approach.

Departure on the other hand I find _much_ higher workload, single pilot
IFR (especailly at night), especially in a high performance plane (less
so in a C172). Things are happening quickly, and at least when I lived
in Houston, it seems that you rarely got the clearance you asked for and
had some sort of re-route just about when you'd levelled off at your
initial altitude, meaning another climbing turn. Plus the effects on
your inner ear seem to be the most pronounced at this point too (by the
time you're on an approach, you're usually 'in the groove' so to speak).
Night IFR plus mountains has to be higher workload still as there are
even more fsck ups that can lead you to be smeared over the ground - in
the flatlands, a minor navigational error is unlikely to kill you.

Personally, I wouldn't do single pilot IFR at night in the mountains
while solo, let alone with the added distraction of having family
members along for the ride.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 10:46:48 -0000, Dylan Smith
wrote:

Departure on the other hand I find _much_ higher workload, single pilot
IFR (especailly at night), especially in a high performance plane (less
so in a C172). Things are happening quickly, and at least when I lived
in Houston, it seems that you rarely got the clearance you asked for and
had some sort of re-route just about when you'd levelled off at your
initial altitude, meaning another climbing turn.

That's pretty common in the Northeast, also. More so when I lived closer
to NYC than now, though. But that's something you become more able to
handle with experience. Also, if there is an Obstacle Departure procedure,
I always fly it.


Plus the effects on
your inner ear seem to be the most pronounced at this point too

I've never noted that in my instrument flying.

Night IFR plus mountains has to be higher workload still as there are
even more fsck ups that can lead you to be smeared over the ground - in
the flatlands, a minor navigational error is unlikely to kill you.

Personally, I wouldn't do single pilot IFR at night in the mountains
while solo, let alone with the added distraction of having family
members along for the ride.

Everyone has to draw a line someplace according to their risk tolerance.
With more (good) experience, you become more able to handle cockpit
"distractions" and increased workload. Personally, I draw a firm line with
regard to icing conditions; and I also won't fly in the mountains if the
winds are too high. I don't know what they were on the route in question,
though.

The equipment you're flying has much to do with it, too. I'd much rather
be in a high-performance aircraft in night IMC in the mountains than in a
C172, though.

But I was wondering about the specifics of Hilton's objection to this
flight, in view of the fact that he wrote he was a CFII so shouldn't have a
problem with the IMC.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On 2005-12-29, Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
Plus the effects on
your inner ear seem to be the most pronounced at this point too

I've never noted that in my instrument flying.

Are you sure? The pitch changes in the departure phase tend to be
greater, as well as acceleration effects. In most light planes, 10
degrees pitch up makes your initial climb. In the enroute phase or
approach phase, pitch changes are usually nowhere near 10 degrees or
large changes of speed in a short period of time while trying to
transition from looking out the windscreen to being on instruments. The
busiest times I've ever had single pilot IFR have been taking off in a
Bonanza in low IFR conditions to add to this. I'm not surprised that
non-proficient in IMC pilots get screwed up and crash on departure.

The equipment you're flying has much to do with it, too. I'd much rather
be in a high-performance aircraft in night IMC in the mountains than in a
C172, though.

I would out of principle too, but there's no denying it's a lot less
busy in a C172 especially on departure!

But I was wondering about the specifics of Hilton's objection to this
flight, in view of the fact that he wrote he was a CFII so shouldn't have a
problem with the IMC.

If I'm not mistaken, it was in the mountains in a fairly marginal plane
(a C172 loaded with people is pretty marginal when it comes to climb
rate). I'm not sure I'd want to launch at night in the mountains in IMC
in a C172 either! I'd want something that could climb _well_ and had
good instrumentation.

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 15:10:54 -0000, Dylan Smith
wrote:

On 2005-12-29, Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
Plus the effects on
your inner ear seem to be the most pronounced at this point too

I've never noted that in my instrument flying.

Are you sure? The pitch changes in the departure phase tend to be
greater, as well as acceleration effects. In most light planes, 10
degrees pitch up makes your initial climb. In the enroute phase or
approach phase, pitch changes are usually nowhere near 10 degrees or
large changes of speed in a short period of time while trying to
transition from looking out the windscreen to being on instruments. The
busiest times I've ever had single pilot IFR have been taking off in a
Bonanza in low IFR conditions to add to this. I'm not surprised that
non-proficient in IMC pilots get screwed up and crash on departure.

No question but that pitch changes may be greater on takeoff than enroute.
But I've not noted any equilibrium problems while flying IMC. Maybe that's
from practice relying on the instruments and ignoring body cues?



The equipment you're flying has much to do with it, too. I'd much rather
be in a high-performance aircraft in night IMC in the mountains than in a
C172, though.

I would out of principle too, but there's no denying it's a lot less
busy in a C172 especially on departure!

I suppose. But I don't seem to have a problem handling the few "extra"
tasks in my Mooney.


But I was wondering about the specifics of Hilton's objection to this
flight, in view of the fact that he wrote he was a CFII so shouldn't have a
problem with the IMC.

If I'm not mistaken, it was in the mountains in a fairly marginal plane
(a C172 loaded with people is pretty marginal when it comes to climb
rate). I'm not sure I'd want to launch at night in the mountains in IMC
in a C172 either! I'd want something that could climb _well_ and had
good instrumentation.

Concur!
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)