PiK20b

I'm about to become the owner of a PiK20b.
I have never flown one before and wondered if there were any
owners/pilots of this particular model who could offer some words of
wisdom on what to expect. I've read with interest the "pat your head rub
your tummy" stories of flaring and winding the flaps up to negative to
weight the tail at the same time so you can use the nose wheel. I'm
guessing 30 to 45 degrees of flap on the approach is going to be like
spoilers.
Looking forward to some responses. I take delivery this Saturday and the
met looks great at the moment.

Phil

Hi Phil,

The PIK has it's own characteristics, though none that need to be
feared. I'll start with takeoff. It's a taildragger and will need to be
lined up carefully before hooking the rope on. For the first 100 feet
or more, it's going where it's initially pointed, especially with the
CG hook. Begin with full -8 cruise flap, and roll the flap handle back
to +8 thermalling position as you have aileron authority. By the time
this is all the way back you're flying. Complete the tow as you
normally would. I like to tow dry at 65 to 75 knots. On your first
flight, I recommend a high tow, to 4000 AGL. Do 3 mock patterns, and
the last one that counts. Make sure to go all the way to +90 degrees on
the flaps and keep the airspeed at 60 kts. You will seem to be standing
on the rudder pedals, but that will become second nature. You are
really NOT pointed straight down. As you turn final for the last time,
you will have a better view of the airport than you ever thought
possible. Don't let the flaps spook you. They're a piece of cake. You
will find flair to be accomplished by easing off forward pressure on
the stick. I keep full flap until I actually touch down, and then wind
them off very quickly all the way to -8. Again pay attention to your
direction because once the tail comes down, it's a bit difficult to
steer with the rudder. Most of all, don't be afraid to add more flap
and forward pressure on the stick on approach. Maintaining airspeed
allows you to adjust your approach and touchdown point very accurately
with practice and a positive attitude.

Congratulations on the new ship.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

Thanks Jack,
I'll let you know how I get on.
The weather today here in Norfolk [UK] is great for gliding, big Cu 4500
- 5000 agl bases, keeping my fingers crossed it stays like this for the
weekend...

Jack wrote:
Hi Phil,

The PIK has it's own characteristics, though none that need to be
feared. I'll start with takeoff. It's a taildragger and will need to be
lined up carefully before hooking the rope on. For the first 100 feet
or more, it's going where it's initially pointed, especially with the
CG hook. Begin with full -8 cruise flap, and roll the flap handle back
to +8 thermalling position as you have aileron authority. By the time
this is all the way back you're flying. Complete the tow as you
normally would. I like to tow dry at 65 to 75 knots. On your first
flight, I recommend a high tow, to 4000 AGL. Do 3 mock patterns, and
the last one that counts. Make sure to go all the way to +90 degrees on
the flaps and keep the airspeed at 60 kts. You will seem to be standing
on the rudder pedals, but that will become second nature. You are
really NOT pointed straight down. As you turn final for the last time,
you will have a better view of the airport than you ever thought
possible. Don't let the flaps spook you. They're a piece of cake. You
will find flair to be accomplished by easing off forward pressure on
the stick. I keep full flap until I actually touch down, and then wind
them off very quickly all the way to -8. Again pay attention to your
direction because once the tail comes down, it's a bit difficult to
steer with the rudder. Most of all, don't be afraid to add more flap
and forward pressure on the stick on approach. Maintaining airspeed
allows you to adjust your approach and touchdown point very accurately
with practice and a positive attitude.

Congratulations on the new ship.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

Phil, one thing to add: in ground effect the ship becomes pitch sensitive.
Once you have rounded out and are working out the last few inches to touch
down, think small adustments.


"phil collin" wrote in message
...
Thanks Jack,
I'll let you know how I get on.
The weather today here in Norfolk [UK] is great for gliding, big Cu 4500 -
5000 agl bases, keeping my fingers crossed it stays like this for the
weekend...

Jack wrote:
Hi Phil,

The PIK has it's own characteristics, though none that need to be
feared. I'll start with takeoff. It's a taildragger and will need to be
lined up carefully before hooking the rope on. For the first 100 feet
or more, it's going where it's initially pointed, especially with the
CG hook. Begin with full -8 cruise flap, and roll the flap handle back
to +8 thermalling position as you have aileron authority. By the time
this is all the way back you're flying. Complete the tow as you
normally would. I like to tow dry at 65 to 75 knots. On your first
flight, I recommend a high tow, to 4000 AGL. Do 3 mock patterns, and
the last one that counts. Make sure to go all the way to +90 degrees on
the flaps and keep the airspeed at 60 kts. You will seem to be standing
on the rudder pedals, but that will become second nature. You are
really NOT pointed straight down. As you turn final for the last time,
you will have a better view of the airport than you ever thought
possible. Don't let the flaps spook you. They're a piece of cake. You
will find flair to be accomplished by easing off forward pressure on
the stick. I keep full flap until I actually touch down, and then wind
them off very quickly all the way to -8. Again pay attention to your
direction because once the tail comes down, it's a bit difficult to
steer with the rudder. Most of all, don't be afraid to add more flap
and forward pressure on the stick on approach. Maintaining airspeed
allows you to adjust your approach and touchdown point very accurately
with practice and a positive attitude.

Congratulations on the new ship.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

Ok,
Glen, would you agree with Jack on the aero tow speed? seems a bit on
the high side that's all. We fly IS30's, IS28's, Blaniks, Darts, Pirats,
Skylarks, libelles etc and we generally tow them all at 60 Knots without
any issue, does the PiK fly better with a quicker tow?
also, the reading I've done suggests best L/D at 63 Knots, does that
sound right?

Thanks to you and Jack

Phil

Glen Kelley wrote:
Phil, one thing to add: in ground effect the ship becomes pitch sensitive.
Once you have rounded out and are working out the last few inches to touch
down, think small adustments.


"phil collin" wrote in message
...
Thanks Jack,
I'll let you know how I get on.
The weather today here in Norfolk [UK] is great for gliding, big Cu 4500 -
5000 agl bases, keeping my fingers crossed it stays like this for the
weekend...

Jack wrote:
Hi Phil,

The PIK has it's own characteristics, though none that need to be
feared. I'll start with takeoff. It's a taildragger and will need to be
lined up carefully before hooking the rope on. For the first 100 feet
or more, it's going where it's initially pointed, especially with the
CG hook. Begin with full -8 cruise flap, and roll the flap handle back
to +8 thermalling position as you have aileron authority. By the time
this is all the way back you're flying. Complete the tow as you
normally would. I like to tow dry at 65 to 75 knots. On your first
flight, I recommend a high tow, to 4000 AGL. Do 3 mock patterns, and
the last one that counts. Make sure to go all the way to +90 degrees on
the flaps and keep the airspeed at 60 kts. You will seem to be standing
on the rudder pedals, but that will become second nature. You are
really NOT pointed straight down. As you turn final for the last time,
you will have a better view of the airport than you ever thought
possible. Don't let the flaps spook you. They're a piece of cake. You
will find flair to be accomplished by easing off forward pressure on
the stick. I keep full flap until I actually touch down, and then wind
them off very quickly all the way to -8. Again pay attention to your
direction because once the tail comes down, it's a bit difficult to
steer with the rudder. Most of all, don't be afraid to add more flap
and forward pressure on the stick on approach. Maintaining airspeed
allows you to adjust your approach and touchdown point very accurately
with practice and a positive attitude.

Congratulations on the new ship.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

In article ,
phil collin wrote:

Ok,
Glen, would you agree with Jack on the aero tow speed? seems a bit on
the high side that's all. We fly IS30's, IS28's, Blaniks, Darts, Pirats,
Skylarks, libelles etc and we generally tow them all at 60 Knots without
any issue, does the PiK fly better with a quicker tow?
also, the reading I've done suggests best L/D at 63 Knots, does that
sound right?

Thanks to you and Jack


I fly a 301 Libelle, towing on the CG hook. It's the CG hook that is the
issue with slow tows. Gliders generally have small elevators, some
smaller or less effective than others. Towing on the CG hook loads up
the tailplane more than towing with a nose hook, so, at low tow speeds,
one can run out of elevator authority. This is especially dangerous in
gusty conditions where there may be momentary hard yanks on the tow line
adding to the tendency to pitch up. God help you if you have an aft CG
in that situation. I have had a tow or two where the speed got down
below 50 knots. That was very uncomfortable and I was reaching for the
tow release in each case while yelling at the tuggy for more speed.

Phil, I've been away for the day and I see much good info has been added. I
forgot to mention the CG hook considerations. I have never felt the need to
specify a tow speed. The tow pilots in my club deal with a lot of glass
ships and whatever they are using for an average has been fine for me. I
would say this is typically 60kt or so. I have experienced no problems with
the CG hook, but respect the slow tow and gust advice that others have
given - make sure the trim is full forward for takeoff. I usually tow with
+8 flap for over the nose visibility (this is at/after liftoff - the full
neg on takeoff roll definitely applies).

I will amplify the advice about not trying to limit your flap setting for
your first pattern. Use whatever it takes! I will also amplify the bit
about not having extra speed in the flare - you can/will go a long ways in
ground effect if you flare with extra speed. I try to hold 55kt in the
pattern, which will let me roll flaps in and out at will.

No matter what the previous part of the approach has been like, I find that
I usually have 90deg rolled on for touchdown. This provides a consistency
in control sensitivity. Almost immediately after touchdown I roll the flaps
back up to full neg to maintaian roll control.

As far as max l/d speed, it depends on your weight and model, but I use 54
kts at 35.1 kg/sq m. This is a PIK-20A - no flap interconnect or carbon.

Glen

"phil collin" wrote in message
...
Ok,
Glen, would you agree with Jack on the aero tow speed? seems a bit on the
high side that's all. We fly IS30's, IS28's, Blaniks, Darts, Pirats,
Skylarks, libelles etc and we generally tow them all at 60 Knots without
any issue, does the PiK fly better with a quicker tow?
also, the reading I've done suggests best L/D at 63 Knots, does that sound
right?

Thanks to you and Jack

Phil

Jack wrote:
Hi Phil,

The PIK has it's own characteristics, though none that need to be
feared. I'll start with takeoff. It's a taildragger and will need to be
lined up carefully before hooking the rope on. For the first 100 feet
or more, it's going where it's initially pointed, especially with the
CG hook. Begin with full -8 cruise flap, and roll the flap handle back
to +8 thermalling position as you have aileron authority. By the time
this is all the way back you're flying. Complete the tow as you
normally would. I like to tow dry at 65 to 75 knots. On your first
flight, I recommend a high tow, to 4000 AGL. Do 3 mock patterns, and
the last one that counts. Make sure to go all the way to +90 degrees on
the flaps and keep the airspeed at 60 kts. You will seem to be standing
on the rudder pedals, but that will become second nature. You are
really NOT pointed straight down. As you turn final for the last time,
you will have a better view of the airport than you ever thought
possible. Don't let the flaps spook you. They're a piece of cake. You
will find flair to be accomplished by easing off forward pressure on
the stick. I keep full flap until I actually touch down, and then wind
them off very quickly all the way to -8. Again pay attention to your
direction because once the tail comes down, it's a bit difficult to
steer with the rudder. Most of all, don't be afraid to add more flap
and forward pressure on the stick on approach. Maintaining airspeed
allows you to adjust your approach and touchdown point very accurately
with practice and a positive attitude.

Congratulations on the new ship.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

USER WARNING!!! The following additional input is offered by someone
whose entire high-performance glider time is in
landing-flaps-only-equipped sailplanes, NONE of which were PIK-20's.
However, one of the ships (Concept 70 - to which I transitioned from a
1-26) had PIK-like actuation, i.e. hand crank, driving flaps through a
rack and pinion.

"What Jack said,"...plus some mild elaboration on his statement, "Most
of all, don't be afraid to add more flap and forward pressure on the
stick on approach." A common - and potentially problematic - issue for
people new to flaps is an unwillingness to use them fully if need be.
Though I may be wrong, I thought I sensed a nod in that direction in the
original post's statement: "I'm guessing 30 to 45 degrees of flap on the
approach is going to be like spoilers." In any event, my general
recommendation is to fly your landing approach using flaps just as if
they ARE spoilers, i.e. add more to increase descent rate (and less to
decrease it), hold the approach speed you want, and don't sweat deck
angle (which necessarily varies with flap angle and WILL be amazingly
steep if all your prior experience has been in spoilered ships).

Two things I definitely recommend NOT doing: 1)don't fly a shallow
approach hoping to avoid use of full flaps; and 2) don't "add speed for
safety."

In angular terms, at worst you should fly a normal approach, though IMHO
a higher-than-normal approach is actually easier/safer to fly in a
PIK-20 (thanks to its powerful flaps). It's also easier for the
beginner to fly an approach that only adds (not takes off) flaps.
Throughout the approach, fly your previously-picked approach speed
regardless of flap angle; your deck angle falls out in the wash.

WRT 1), shallow approaches are bad in any ship for all the obvious
reasons. WRT 2), flaps reward proper speed control, and actively
penalize poor/high final approach speeds once the roundout/flare has
been performed. From the pilot's perspective, they quit working if
you're 'too fast' after flaring. In roughly 3 decades of observing lots
of pilots fly their initial flaps-only glider flights, I've seen none
come in short, and more than I'd like to have seen come in
shallow/fast/worrisomely-long.

You're also less likely to 'worrisomely balloon' when flaring with more
(as opposed to less) flaps. Regardless, if you do balloon, my
recommendation is to simply stop adding aft stick, hold what you've then
got in (stick and flaps), and wait. Try to avoid stick pumping (good
PIO avoidance therapy). Don't worry about 'dropping it in' (your
balloon will NOT be as high as you fear it is, and, by the presence of
the balloon itself, clearly you still have flying speed).

One non-flap-specific 'new ship' bit of advice...as for flare point -
pick something safely conservative (say, 25% of the way along your
available landing area), and don't get tense or stupid if you miss it
'by an embarrassing distance' either way. Landing accuracy comes with
experience, which by definition you don't have on any first flight.

Most of all...HAVE FUN!!! All gliders are fun; flapped gliders are even
more fun than you presently suspect!

Regards,
Bob W.

Thanks Bob,
added now to my re-read these on Saturday notes.

I will point out I cut my teeth on Grob 103 acro II B's and quite
happily in 25 knot winds pulled full airbrake and stood it on its nose
in near vertical approaches over the threshold, so steep approach angles
= no worries. I do also have a 1000 + glider hours but have never sat in
let alone flown a flaps only sailplane so really can't wait. The one
thing I love about this group is if you ask for advice people like
yourself and the other two chaps are good enough to write intelligent
replies.

Phil.




Bob Whelan wrote:
Jack wrote:
Hi Phil,

The PIK has it's own characteristics, though none that need to be
feared. I'll start with takeoff. It's a taildragger and will need to be
lined up carefully before hooking the rope on. For the first 100 feet
or more, it's going where it's initially pointed, especially with the
CG hook. Begin with full -8 cruise flap, and roll the flap handle back
to +8 thermalling position as you have aileron authority. By the time
this is all the way back you're flying. Complete the tow as you
normally would. I like to tow dry at 65 to 75 knots. On your first
flight, I recommend a high tow, to 4000 AGL. Do 3 mock patterns, and
the last one that counts. Make sure to go all the way to +90 degrees on
the flaps and keep the airspeed at 60 kts. You will seem to be standing
on the rudder pedals, but that will become second nature. You are
really NOT pointed straight down. As you turn final for the last time,
you will have a better view of the airport than you ever thought
possible. Don't let the flaps spook you. They're a piece of cake. You
will find flair to be accomplished by easing off forward pressure on
the stick. I keep full flap until I actually touch down, and then wind
them off very quickly all the way to -8. Again pay attention to your
direction because once the tail comes down, it's a bit difficult to
steer with the rudder. Most of all, don't be afraid to add more flap
and forward pressure on the stick on approach. Maintaining airspeed
allows you to adjust your approach and touchdown point very accurately
with practice and a positive attitude.

Congratulations on the new ship.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

USER WARNING!!! The following additional input is offered by someone
whose entire high-performance glider time is in
landing-flaps-only-equipped sailplanes, NONE of which were PIK-20's.
However, one of the ships (Concept 70 - to which I transitioned from a
1-26) had PIK-like actuation, i.e. hand crank, driving flaps through a
rack and pinion.

"What Jack said,"...plus some mild elaboration on his statement, "Most
of all, don't be afraid to add more flap and forward pressure on the
stick on approach." A common - and potentially problematic - issue for
people new to flaps is an unwillingness to use them fully if need be.
Though I may be wrong, I thought I sensed a nod in that direction in the
original post's statement: "I'm guessing 30 to 45 degrees of flap on the
approach is going to be like spoilers." In any event, my general
recommendation is to fly your landing approach using flaps just as if
they ARE spoilers, i.e. add more to increase descent rate (and less to
decrease it), hold the approach speed you want, and don't sweat deck
angle (which necessarily varies with flap angle and WILL be amazingly
steep if all your prior experience has been in spoilered ships).

Two things I definitely recommend NOT doing: 1)don't fly a shallow
approach hoping to avoid use of full flaps; and 2) don't "add speed for
safety."

In angular terms, at worst you should fly a normal approach, though IMHO
a higher-than-normal approach is actually easier/safer to fly in a
PIK-20 (thanks to its powerful flaps). It's also easier for the
beginner to fly an approach that only adds (not takes off) flaps.
Throughout the approach, fly your previously-picked approach speed
regardless of flap angle; your deck angle falls out in the wash.

WRT 1), shallow approaches are bad in any ship for all the obvious
reasons. WRT 2), flaps reward proper speed control, and actively
penalize poor/high final approach speeds once the roundout/flare has
been performed. From the pilot's perspective, they quit working if
you're 'too fast' after flaring. In roughly 3 decades of observing lots
of pilots fly their initial flaps-only glider flights, I've seen none
come in short, and more than I'd like to have seen come in
shallow/fast/worrisomely-long.

You're also less likely to 'worrisomely balloon' when flaring with more
(as opposed to less) flaps. Regardless, if you do balloon, my
recommendation is to simply stop adding aft stick, hold what you've then
got in (stick and flaps), and wait. Try to avoid stick pumping (good
PIO avoidance therapy). Don't worry about 'dropping it in' (your
balloon will NOT be as high as you fear it is, and, by the presence of
the balloon itself, clearly you still have flying speed).

One non-flap-specific 'new ship' bit of advice...as for flare point -
pick something safely conservative (say, 25% of the way along your
available landing area), and don't get tense or stupid if you miss it
'by an embarrassing distance' either way. Landing accuracy comes with
experience, which by definition you don't have on any first flight.

Most of all...HAVE FUN!!! All gliders are fun; flapped gliders are even
more fun than you presently suspect!

Regards,
Bob W.

Phil
I agree with the comments made by all of those above. I would add a few
more. First, the flap detents are 2* increments, far more than are
necessary. I think of the PIK as having 5 landing flap positions, 1, 2,
3, 4, and 5, corresponding to full revolutions of the flap handle. Thus
the handle is always at the top. If the pattern is a normal one (not low
or high), I use 1-2 turns on downwind to get me started down, add 1 or 2
on base and when the runway is definitely made, the rest, usually 90*
but if I want to float some, I'll stop at 4 turns. Do not start the
round out too high at 90* of flap...it will slow down quickly and a hard
landing could result. I maintain 60 KIAS in the pattern until on final
then slow to 55 KIAS. Second, adding flap will cause you to pitch up and
slow down so to avoid the airspeed loss, you must pitch down promptly as
you add flap. The glider resists accelerating if slow with large flap
settings so don't get behind on this task. Conversely, removing flap (I
would not recommend this on your first flight unless desperately low)
causes the aircraft to accelerate and will require a prompt pitch up
adjustment. Third, regarding PIOs on landing, this seems to most common
with very aft CG. I found if my CG is aft of 90%, a PIO is hard to
avoid. Moving the CG to 75% to 80% virtually eliminated this problem.
Lastly, the advice to leave yourself plenty of floating room(especially)
at flap settings less than 90*), is right on but don't forget about
stopping. The wheel brake can be marginal.

Good luck on your first flight.

Paul











phil collin wrote:
I'm about to become the owner of a PiK20b.
I have never flown one before and wondered if there were any
owners/pilots of this particular model who could offer some words of
wisdom on what to expect. I've read with interest the "pat your head rub
your tummy" stories of flaring and winding the flaps up to negative to
weight the tail at the same time so you can use the nose wheel. I'm
guessing 30 to 45 degrees of flap on the approach is going to be like
spoilers.
Looking forward to some responses. I take delivery this Saturday and the
met looks great at the moment.

Phil