NTSB prelim report out

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X01297&key=2

For you amateur FAR lawyers to chew on:

"The glider was equipped with a panel mounted communication radio,
global positioning system (GPS) unit, and a transponder; however, the
pilot did not turn on the GPS and transponder. The transponder's
activation is not required for glider operations (for more details see
14 CFR Part 91.215). According to the glider pilot, he did not turn on
the transponder because he was only intending on remaining in the local
glider area, and because he wanted to reserve his batteries for radio
use. The glider was equipped with two batteries (one main and one
spare), however, due to the previous glider flights, the pilot was
unsure of the remaining charge in the battery."

Very lucky pilot, both in the air and on the ground, if he gets away
with it...


wrote:
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X01297&key=2

For you amateur FAR lawyers to chew on:

"The glider was equipped with a panel mounted communication radio,
global positioning system (GPS) unit, and a transponder; however, the
pilot did not turn on the GPS and transponder. The transponder's
activation is not required for glider operations (for more details see
14 CFR Part 91.215). According to the glider pilot, he did not turn on
the transponder because he was only intending on remaining in the local
glider area, and because he wanted to reserve his batteries for radio
use. The glider was equipped with two batteries (one main and one
spare), however, due to the previous glider flights, the pilot was
unsure of the remaining charge in the battery."

An interesting statement from the report:

"The transponder's activation is not required for glider operations (for
more details see 14 CFR Part 91.215)."


Ramy wrote:
Very lucky pilot, both in the air and on the ground, if he gets away
with it...


wrote:
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?e...06X01297&key=2

For you amateur FAR lawyers to chew on:

"The glider was equipped with a panel mounted communication radio,
global positioning system (GPS) unit, and a transponder; however, the
pilot did not turn on the GPS and transponder. The transponder's
activation is not required for glider operations (for more details see
14 CFR Part 91.215). According to the glider pilot, he did not turn on
the transponder because he was only intending on remaining in the local
glider area, and because he wanted to reserve his batteries for radio
use. The glider was equipped with two batteries (one main and one
spare), however, due to the previous glider flights, the pilot was
unsure of the remaining charge in the battery."

Greg,
Very interesting indeed. If you have a transponder in your aircraft,
it needs to be ON. FAR91.215.c.(unless I am reading it wrong).. Much
different that not having a transponder, definitely NOT required in
that airspace.
Lucky that no one was killed. I feel sorry for the glider owner
that cared enough about safety to equip his sailplane with a
transponder yet it wasn't used during the flight.

Dean

Reminds me of an old instructor who told me that instruments that were
not working were as useful as runway behind you!

So if the glider had its transponder turned on, the TCAS on the jet
would likely have alerted the Hawker pilots in time to avoid the
collision?

Mike


"The glider was equipped with a panel mounted communication radio,
global positioning system (GPS) unit, and a transponder; however, the
pilot did not turn on the GPS and transponder. The transponder's
activation is not required for glider operations (for more details see
14 CFR Part 91.215). According to the glider pilot, he did not turn on
the transponder because he was only intending on remaining in the local
glider area, and because he wanted to reserve his batteries for radio
use. The glider was equipped with two batteries (one main and one
spare), however, due to the previous glider flights, the pilot was
unsure of the remaining charge in the battery."

Mike the Strike wrote:
Reminds me of an old instructor who told me that instruments that were
not working were as useful as runway behind you!

So if the glider had its transponder turned on, the TCAS on the jet
would likely have alerted the Hawker pilots in time to avoid the
collision?

Mike
================================================== =========

Has it been established that the Hawker had TCAS? and if it did, what
type configuration?

I have flown airliners with a scalable display which shows all targets
up to 40 NM around the aircraft. Other airliners have a much more
modest display. Given the smaller panel space in a bizjet, the modest
display would be the best to hope for. If you know how TCAS works, then
I appologize if I offend:

TCAS II has a two level threat warning area. The first area, which is
largest forward of the airplane will generate an audible "TRAFFIC,
TRAFFIC" at this time, the display I am familiar with would should the
target as an amber where previous it was a white on black diamond with
relative altitude displayed. If the target's and the unit's flight path
are projected to enter the inner threat area, a resolution advisory
(RA) is given to the pilots. At the RA level, the vertical speed
indicator will have red arcs for rate of climb/descent to not do and
green arcs to fly towards. The announciation will say: "CLIMB, CLIMB,"
or "CLIMB NOW" for added urgency. Insert "DESCEND" for alternate
scenarios. At completion of the confict, the TCAS will announce:
"MONITOR VERTICAL SPEED" and "CLEAR OF CONFLICT."

Pilots are free to deviate from ATC clearance when an RA is received.
Had the transponder been operating on the glider with correct mode C
indications and the bizjet had TCAS II installed and operating, the
bizjet pilot would have heard the "TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC" and likely
"MONITOR VERTICAL SPEED" with some change required in their descent
rate.

Would the transponder have prevented this? Yes, if the glider had a
correctly functioning mode C transponder and the bizjet had a TCAS
system selected on and the bizjet pilots promptly followed any RA. A
lot of ifs there.

I don't beleive that transponders are the magic sheild that some do.
There are far too many airplanes that do not have this installed.

Transponders won't protect you from most VFR traffic, but they will protect
you from IFR traffic, thanks to not only TCAS, but also the ability of ATC
to see you and keep the traffic away from you.

Mike Schumann

"Terry" wrote in message
ups.com...

Mike the Strike wrote:
Reminds me of an old instructor who told me that instruments that were
not working were as useful as runway behind you!

So if the glider had its transponder turned on, the TCAS on the jet
would likely have alerted the Hawker pilots in time to avoid the
collision?

Mike
================================================== =========

Has it been established that the Hawker had TCAS? and if it did, what
type configuration?

I have flown airliners with a scalable display which shows all targets
up to 40 NM around the aircraft. Other airliners have a much more
modest display. Given the smaller panel space in a bizjet, the modest
display would be the best to hope for. If you know how TCAS works, then
I appologize if I offend:

TCAS II has a two level threat warning area. The first area, which is
largest forward of the airplane will generate an audible "TRAFFIC,
TRAFFIC" at this time, the display I am familiar with would should the
target as an amber where previous it was a white on black diamond with
relative altitude displayed. If the target's and the unit's flight path
are projected to enter the inner threat area, a resolution advisory
(RA) is given to the pilots. At the RA level, the vertical speed
indicator will have red arcs for rate of climb/descent to not do and
green arcs to fly towards. The announciation will say: "CLIMB, CLIMB,"
or "CLIMB NOW" for added urgency. Insert "DESCEND" for alternate
scenarios. At completion of the confict, the TCAS will announce:
"MONITOR VERTICAL SPEED" and "CLEAR OF CONFLICT."

Pilots are free to deviate from ATC clearance when an RA is received.
Had the transponder been operating on the glider with correct mode C
indications and the bizjet had TCAS II installed and operating, the
bizjet pilot would have heard the "TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC" and likely
"MONITOR VERTICAL SPEED" with some change required in their descent
rate.

Would the transponder have prevented this? Yes, if the glider had a
correctly functioning mode C transponder and the bizjet had a TCAS
system selected on and the bizjet pilots promptly followed any RA. A
lot of ifs there.

I don't beleive that transponders are the magic sheild that some do.
There are far too many airplanes that do not have this installed.

Would the transponder have prevented this? Yes, if the glider had a
correctly functioning mode C transponder and the bizjet had a TCAS
system selected on and the bizjet pilots promptly followed any RA. A
lot of ifs there.

With a BizJet, Turboprop or Airliner with TCAS? Maybe.. or at least given
the pilots a heads up they were not alone and put the eyes into a quadrant
of airspace or a blind reaction to RA warnings.

If it had been a smaller, non jet with no TCAS capability?.. NO.. No chance
at all for a warning.
If the non TCAS equiped airplane was talking to ATC, where ATC "might" have
been able to issue a traffic warning? Maybe

Is TIS service from Reno Approach available in that area? A transponder
"might" have made a difference in a TIS service area IF the airplane had a
TIS display capability.


I don't beleive that transponders are the magic sheild that some do.
There are far too many airplanes that do not have this installed.

I agree, a Transponder is not a force field to keep threats away, and a lot
of people cruise just below Class A airspace so they don't need ATC
assistance or have to deal with IFR clearances.

BT

"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:vDpMg.3357$8J2.3041@fed1read11...

I agree, a Transponder is not a force field to keep threats away, and a
lot of people cruise just below Class A airspace so they don't need ATC
assistance or have to deal with IFR clearances.

BT
Funny, I used to fly IFR just so I didn't have to deal with all that VFR
crap.

Bill Daniels

Terry wrote:
snip

Would the transponder have prevented this? Yes, if the glider had a
correctly functioning mode C transponder and the bizjet had a TCAS
system selected on and the bizjet pilots promptly followed any RA. A
lot of ifs there.

From the report:

"The Hawker 800XP was equipped with a TCAS warning system."

It says the glider had a transponder but not if it was mode C. So, we
know that the Bizjet had the equipment - if I was the glider pilot and
lost my plane due to not turning on some kit I have, I would be sick,
sick sick.



I don't beleive that transponders are the magic sheild that some do.
There are far too many airplanes that do not have this installed.

*nothing* is a magic shield, but when one has the kit not using will
look like madness to many observers. Radar doesn't prevent all
collisions at sea, not all vessels are equipped with it, and there are
problems spotting small sailing vessels - but no-one suggests it should
be turned off.