Short vs Soft Field Takeoff and Landings

In an attempt to get the board back on track with aviation
subjects...Of late I have been doing curriculum directed training for
soft and short field ops. What strikes me is the absolute limited
thinking on the subject as far as the books and available study
courses. For example......
What is a soft field? Sand, gravel, grass, mud, water (rainfall), snow?
What about a hard surface with 6" of fresh snow? Short could be a 9000'
runway that the snowplow cleared a swath of 25' and the thing broke
down after about 1500' of runway. ??? Ok.........
A short field takeoff nearly always assumes a 50' obstacle and directs
the technique in that direction. Well, what about a short field that is
pointed over a lake, or the ocean? No obstacle to contend with.??
How about a short/soft/obstacle with a good crosswind? Not hard to
conjure up....landing on a curving beach??
Landing with a short and potentially soft field....technique change?
Add an obstacle...?
when is the last time you got out there and really checked to see what
the (your) aircraft is capable of with your present state of
proficiency? Don't think it important? If you don't think so, you have
never been faced with an actual emergency and few options for a landing
spot.
What about precision landings? Done any lately? If not, WHY NOT? Have
you checked the book to see what the numbers are and gone out to see if
you can match them? Have you ever read the fine print to qualify the
conditions for either takeoff or landing? Don't forget,THE LARGE PRINT
GIVETH and the small print taketh away.......
Hope this stirs some discussion.
Rocky aka Ol Shy & Bashful 23,000+ hrs and going strong after 70

I agree this (soft vs short vs crosswind including direction of
crosswind takeoffs, and landings) and how to prioritize combinations,
or anticipate problems was not well covered in my ASEL training - or at
least I didn't pick it up.

I could just as well have rolled my (then) new 172M in a ball in a
higher altitude crosswind takeoff. Luckily the strong crosswind
happened to be from the right. It wasn't until a year later that
someone else pointed out that the crosswind and its direction, has to
take control input and performance precedence.

I could just as well have rolled my (then) new 172M in a ball in a
higher altitude crosswind takeoff. Luckily the strong crosswind
happened to be from the right. It wasn't until a year later that
someone else pointed out that the crosswind and its direction, has to
take control input and performance precedence.

What would you have done differently? What did you do? What might you
have done wrong?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

What might you
have done wrong?

Warm day at Hamilton MT. Strong WSW wind. On the takeoff roll I
raised the nosewheel confusing shortfield (incorrect I know) with
softfield & I got into the rubbity scrubs with the main gear. I cleared
the fence by only a few feet.

Good things in my favor - Only two on board & the Xwind was from the
right. If I had been heavier or if it had been from the left, I would
have lost it for sure.

I've noticed a couple of other takeoff and landing accidents that
appear to this control engineer to have to do with confusing the
control inputs needed to drive a car vs control an aircraft. Everyone
drives cars & has a instinctive control reaction in a skid for example,
but sometimes the needed A/C control wheel inputs are opposite to a
car.

Make sense?

What might you
have done wrong?

Warm day at Hamilton MT. Strong WSW wind. On the takeoff roll I
raised the nosewheel confusing shortfield (incorrect I know) with
softfield reqts & not recognizing that the crosswind was the most
important.

I got into the rubbity-scrubs with the main gear. I cleared
the fence by only a few feet.

Fortunate things in my favor - Only two on board & the Xwind was from
the
right. If I had been heavier or if it had been from the left, I would
have lost it or been in the fence for sure.

I've noticed a couple of other takeoff and landing accidents that
appear (I'm a retired controls engineer) to have to do with confusing
the
control inputs needed to drive a car vs control an aircraft. Everyone
drives cars & has a instinctive control reaction in a skid for example,
but sometimes the needed A/C control wheel inputs are opposite to a
car.

Make sense?

nrp
what a cooincidence! My place was up at the west side of Dutch Hill
Road. Sadly an X wife is current resident....
Montana born and bred - SelwayKid
nrp wrote:
What might you
have done wrong?

Warm day at Hamilton MT. Strong WSW wind. On the takeoff roll I
raised the nosewheel confusing shortfield (incorrect I know) with
softfield reqts & not recognizing that the crosswind was the most
important.

I got into the rubbity-scrubs with the main gear. I cleared
the fence by only a few feet.

Fortunate things in my favor - Only two on board & the Xwind was from
the
right. If I had been heavier or if it had been from the left, I would
have lost it or been in the fence for sure.

I've noticed a couple of other takeoff and landing accidents that
appear (I'm a retired controls engineer) to have to do with confusing
the
control inputs needed to drive a car vs control an aircraft. Everyone
drives cars & has a instinctive control reaction in a skid for example,
but sometimes the needed A/C control wheel inputs are opposite to a
car.

Make sense?

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

In an attempt to get the board back on track with aviation
subjects...Of late I have been doing curriculum directed training for
soft and short field ops. What strikes me is the absolute limited
thinking on the subject as far as the books and available study
courses. For example......
What is a soft field? Sand, gravel, grass, mud, water (rainfall), snow?
What about a hard surface with 6" of fresh snow? Short could be a 9000'
runway that the snowplow cleared a swath of 25' and the thing broke
down after about 1500' of runway. ??? Ok.........
A short field takeoff nearly always assumes a 50' obstacle and directs
the technique in that direction. Well, what about a short field that is
pointed over a lake, or the ocean? No obstacle to contend with.??
How about a short/soft/obstacle with a good crosswind? Not hard to
conjure up....landing on a curving beach??
Landing with a short and potentially soft field....technique change?
Add an obstacle...?
when is the last time you got out there and really checked to see what
the (your) aircraft is capable of with your present state of
proficiency? Don't think it important? If you don't think so, you have
never been faced with an actual emergency and few options for a landing
spot.
What about precision landings? Done any lately? If not, WHY NOT? Have
you checked the book to see what the numbers are and gone out to see if
you can match them? Have you ever read the fine print to qualify the
conditions for either takeoff or landing? Don't forget,THE LARGE PRINT
GIVETH and the small print taketh away.......
Hope this stirs some discussion.
Rocky aka Ol Shy & Bashful 23,000+ hrs and going strong after 70


You may wish to search the usenet archives as there was a long thread
about this a few months or so ago.

Matt

Rocky,

Did you ever meet Hal Rueschenberg? He was an old NW pilot and had a DGA-11
at the Hamilton A/P.

Karl


"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in message
ups.com...
nrp
what a cooincidence! My place was up at the west side of Dutch Hill
Road. Sadly an X wife is current resident....
Montana born and bred - SelwayKid
nrp wrote:
What might you
have done wrong?

Warm day at Hamilton MT. Strong WSW wind. On the takeoff roll I
raised the nosewheel confusing shortfield (incorrect I know) with
softfield reqts & not recognizing that the crosswind was the most
important.

I got into the rubbity-scrubs with the main gear. I cleared
the fence by only a few feet.

Fortunate things in my favor - Only two on board & the Xwind was from
the
right. If I had been heavier or if it had been from the left, I would
have lost it or been in the fence for sure.

I've noticed a couple of other takeoff and landing accidents that
appear (I'm a retired controls engineer) to have to do with confusing
the
control inputs needed to drive a car vs control an aircraft. Everyone
drives cars & has a instinctive control reaction in a skid for example,
but sometimes the needed A/C control wheel inputs are opposite to a
car.

Make sense?

Matt, being always the obnoxious one writes:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

"""snipped""""


You may wish to search the usenet archives as there was a long thread
about this a few months or so ago.

Matt

Karl

karl gruber wrote:
Matt, being always the obnoxious one writes:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:


"""snipped""""


You may wish to search the usenet archives as there was a long thread
about this a few months or so ago.

Matt


Karl



What is obnoxious about pointing someone to a source of information
related to their question? I assumed the OP doesn't frequent this forum
and thus had no way to know that his topic of interest was covered in
some detail not that long ago. What is your problem today?

Matt