Minimum Safe Altitude

FAR 91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing,
no person may operate an aircraft.................................
.....
(c)... closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel,
vehicle or structure.

In light of the above regulation, would someone please
tell me how our 50 foot finish line is legal? All the
finish lines I have seen come within 500 feet of a
person (Charlie & his kids) , vehicle (his van).

Aren't we just asking for what happened in the UK?
JJ

At 14:30 11 February 2007, John Sinclair wrote:
FAR 91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing,
no person may operate an aircraft.................................

.....
(c)... closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel,
vehicle or structure.

In light of the above regulation, would someone please
tell me how our 50 foot finish line is legal? All the
finish lines I have seen come within 500 feet of a
person (Charlie & his kids) , vehicle (his van).

Aren't we just asking for what happened in the UK?
JJ

If you read the contents of previous discussions on
this subject you would know that I and some others
have questioned the legality of the practice. I have
always known that given the wording of the rules it
was an offence. Now we are in the situation where it
has been confirmed that the procedure is outside the
exemption and the Civil Aviation Authority will now
impose on all glider pilots a requirement which we
probably will not like. Such a blanket restriction
is not necessary for the majority of competition pilots
who fly a low finish perfectly safely having regard
to the presence of people and obstacles on the ground
and other factors. Because of a few irresponsible pilots,
who have complete disregard for sensible behaviour,
the majority will now have to suffer a restriction
which they did not need to be safe. If only we took
measures to weed out the idiots ourselves before they
cause trouble we would be far better off.
In answer too your last question, yes you are unless
you take active measures to curb the excesses of the
minority and prevent those who exhibit unacceptable
practices from doing so. In short, impose bans on those
who deliberately act in an irresponsible fashion.

On Feb 11, 9:26 am, John Sinclair
wrote:
FAR 91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing,
no person may operate an aircraft.................................
....
(c)... closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel,
vehicle or structure.

In light of the above regulation, would someone please
tell me how our 50 foot finish line is legal? All the
finish lines I have seen come within 500 feet of a
person (Charlie & his kids) , vehicle (his van).

Aren't we just asking for what happened in the UK?
JJ

Most US contest organizers know to apply for an FAA waiver on this
issue. My understanding is that they are not that hard to obtain.

2c

On Feb 11, 10:18 am, "
wrote:
On Feb 11, 9:26 am, John Sinclair

wrote:
FAR 91.119 Except when necessary for takeoff or landing,
no person may operate an aircraft.................................
....
(c)... closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel,
vehicle or structure.

In light of the above regulation, would someone please
tell me how our 50 foot finish line is legal? All the
finish lines I have seen come within 500 feet of a
person (Charlie & his kids) , vehicle (his van).

Aren't we just asking for what happened in the UK?
JJ

JJ

First, look up the FAA definitino of a "low pass" in the AIM. Then
find the definition of a landing pattern. You will find that it's
pretty much left up to the pilot to decide what maneuver is necessary
for the landing. My interpretation is that as long as the maneuver is
part of a planned landing (or landing maneuver - which allows go-
arounds and missed approaches), If I want to check out the runway
condition and wind, I can fly down the runway as low as I want. In a
glider, I obviously have to be fast to make it safe (just like a power
plane has to have the fuel to complete a missed approach).

Obviously, overflying people, bldgs, vehicles while low is in
violation - and stupid - which is why I now only do contest finishes
along the runway if I'm going to be low.

But if you are over a runway at 50 ft, there is no regulatory
difference between 50 knots and 150 knots.

Let's not overreact about what happened in England. In the US, even
if the accident hadn't happened, the pilot would have been penalized
for a low finish (below 50'). We have the control in place - the
Brits should copy our rule!

You can go to any FAA towered airport and if it's not too busy,
request and do a low pass in a powered plane - and go as low as you
want and as fast as you want (within the airspeed limits below
10,000') and no-one will complain. As long as it's down the runway.

Well, some old jealous crochety geezers will, of course...

Kirk
66

Kevin wrote................
Most US contest organizers know to apply for an FAA
waiver on this
issue. My understanding is that they are not that
hard to obtain.

Yes sir, Mr PSDO, we're having one of them gilder contests
and we'd like to fly closer than 500 feet to folks
and things. Could we get a waiver for that? I understand
you give them all the time.
Also, after the guys get through flying low and fast
near folks, they do this maneuver not necessary for
normal flight, could we be gettin' a waiver for that
too?
Thank Youuu,
JJ

On Feb 11, 1:16 pm, John Sinclair
wrote:
Kevin wrote................
Most US contest organizers know to apply for an FAA
waiver on this
issue. My understanding is that they are not that
hard to obtain.

Yes sir, Mr PSDO, we're having one of them gilder contests
and we'd like to fly closer than 500 feet to folks
and things. Could we get a waiver for that? I understand
you give them all the time.
Also, after the guys get through flying low and fast
near folks, they do this maneuver not necessary for
normal flight, could we be gettin' a waiver for that
too?
Thank Youuu,
JJ

The FAA can issue waivers for all sorts of things. Give them a call
and ask them, if you don't believe me.

2c

Kirt wrote...........
find the definition of a landing pattern. You will
find that it's
pretty much left up to the pilot to decide what maneuver
is necessary
for the landing.

Well, lets see, now. Your at 145 knots and 50 feet
and you say you in your landing pattern....................
1. Haver you slowed to landing speed?
2. Have you put the gear down?
3. Have you put the flaps down?
4. Have you made a landing radio call?
5. Are you ready to explain your actions to the Federalies
if / when you run into someone / something?,

I'm not, so I don't do it and I won't run a contest
that allows it or enter a contest that does.
Crotchitchy old JJ

The logic here still escapes me....soaring contest
organizers are to ask the FAA for a waiver...so that
an activity that the vast majority of pilots do not
choose to do, and consider unsafe...will be permitted?
Particularly in light of GPS scoring. I would love
to be the fly on the wall when one of our 'wormburner'
contingent comes up with his/her rationale to present
to the FAA.

As another data-point on this discussion....how does
the insurance company view the fatality in Great Britian?,
and for that matter...how would insurance cover a low-pass
accident that busted FAR's? I pay my premiums to cover
accidents that occured within pilots flying by FAR,
not for cowboys.



At 19:00 11 February 2007,
wrote:
On Feb 11, 1:16 pm, John Sinclair
wrote:
Kevin wrote................
Most US contest organizers know to apply for an FAA
waiver on this
issue. My understanding is that they are not that
hard to obtain.

Yes sir, Mr PSDO, we're having one of them gilder
contests
and we'd like to fly closer than 500 feet to folks
and things. Could we get a waiver for that? I understand
you give them all the time.
Also, after the guys get through flying low and fast
near folks, they do this maneuver not necessary for
normal flight, could we be gettin' a waiver for that
too?
Thank Youuu,
JJ

The FAA can issue waivers for all sorts of things.
Give them a call
and ask them, if you don't believe me.

2c

Stewart Kissel schrieb:
The logic here still escapes me....soaring contest
organizers are to ask the FAA for a waiver...so that
an activity that the vast majority of pilots do not
choose to do, and consider unsafe...will be permitted?

Ever seen an airshow?

Yeah, I remember back in 1988 seeing on TV the airshow at Ramstein
where the Italian aerobatic team had a mid-air. It injured over 400
people and killed 70. Airshow regulations were changed to better
protect the audience.

That's the point here - learn from this tragic accident, recognize
there was a problem with the "show" as it was being conducted, and
change things so people don't get hurt or killed in the future.

-John

On Feb 11, 2:16 pm, Stefan wrote:
Ever seen an airshow?