P-47/51 deflection shots into the belly of the German tanks,reality

Subject: P-47/51 deflection shots into the belly of the German
tanks,reality
From: (Walt BJ)
Date: 8/6/03 10:07 PM Pacific

I'd guess the pilot's eyes were on flak rather
than a target a lot of the time.


No point watching flak. There is nothing you can do about it, Watch the
target, there is a lot you can do about that. Never forget why you are flying
the mission in the first place. And it is not to look at flak..Flak is always
there no matter what. Now forget it and get on with the job.

Well, most of the WW2 USAF pilots were in the new guy category .
. .250-300 hours, 18-22 years old and off you go, with a few old heads
to check you out for real.

Just be glad these "new guys" weren't shooting at you. Your casual dismissing
of their abilities doesn't hold with the way the war worked out. We won that
one remember?. Which is more than can be said for wars that came later.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:


No point watching flak. There is nothing you can do about it, Watch the
target, there is a lot you can do about that. Never forget why you are flying
the mission in the first place. And it is not to look at flak..Flak is always
there no matter what. Now forget it and get on with the job.

Well, yes and no. If you watch the flak, you can tell whether you're
dealing with aimed or barrage fire. You can tell the general caliber
of the guns and so estimate the effective range and threat.

I recall one day operating in the panhandle of N. Vietnam in a flight
of four F-105s cruising in spread formation at about 20k feet. We saw
a battery of 85s fire. Lead smoothly rolled into about 30 degrees of
bank and changed heading by about 30 degrees. About ten seconds later,
the 85s burst at our altitude in the airspace we would have been
transiting.

If you've got barrage fire--guns aimed at a sector of airspace, then
you fly through it quickly. If you've got aimed fire (optical or
radar) then you need to jink or they will nail you. Watch the
flak--it's part of the job.


Just be glad these "new guys" weren't shooting at you. Your casual dismissing
of their abilities doesn't hold with the way the war worked out. We won that
one remember?. Which is more than can be said for wars that came later.

Arthur Kramer

Well, while we may have lost the political war, I reminded one of my
political science students last year when he mentioned the US losing
the Vietnam war, that there are 58,000 names on the Wall. The enemy in
SEA lost (according to various sources) between one and three million
dead. That sort of a ratio would indicate to me that we won a military
victory. And, it also would suggest that our enemies can't sustain too
many victories for themselves with that sort of cost.

And, as for "wars that came later" you might want to consider Desert
Storm and Iraqi Freedom as victories in your list.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038

Subject: P-47/51 deflection shots into the belly of the German
tanks,reality
From: Ed Rasimus
Date: 8/7/03 8:11 AM Pacific

No point watching flak. There is nothing you can do about it, Watch the
target, there is a lot you can do about that. Never forget why you are
flying
the mission in the first place. And it is not to look at flak..Flak is
always
there no matter what. Now forget it and get on with the job.

Well, yes and no. If you watch the flak, you can tell whether you're
dealing with aimed or barrage fire. You can tell the general caliber
of the guns and so estimate the effective range and threat.

The post I was responding to was one about strafing where the poster accused
the pilots of watching the flack instead of the ground targets and as a reult
shooting poorly.. But for purposes of evasive action, you are of course
correct. See my website and the story "Flak, Evasive Action and the Dangerous
Games We Played." But of course that is stuff you are all too well aware of.

And, as for "wars that came later" you might want to consider Desert
Storm and Iraqi Freedom as victories in your list.


I was talking about wars in which we faced powerful determined enemies where
the outcome was not predictable before the war even began.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:11:05 GMT, Ed Rasimus wrote:

Well, yes and no. If you watch the flak, you can tell whether you're
dealing with aimed or barrage fire. You can tell the general caliber
of the guns and so estimate the effective range and threat.

If you've got barrage fire--guns aimed at a sector of airspace, then
you fly through it quickly. If you've got aimed fire (optical or
radar) then you need to jink or they will nail you. Watch the
flak--it's part of the job.

I've never personally experienced tripleA except for for some over-zealous
Cubans armed with RPKs taking potshots at our Hueys down in GITMO, and some
lunatic Lebonese dropping mortar rounds into Beirut airport while we were on the
taxiway.

However, I'm one of those over 50 guys who plays online combat sims for
recreation Let's face it, piloting a fighter in combat is the domain of the
young and bold. However, unlike the real world age is no factor since there
isn't any flight forces acting on one's body other than gravity pinning one's
butt into a comfy chair.

I play Aces High, the undisputed Rolls Royce of the genre. We have full realism,
and the learning curve is extremely steep. Generally speaking, if you have no
flight experience, you will have a very long and painful period of growth. This
sim is WWII based, so weapon systems are simple, gunsights are even less complex

than the basic reflector sights of the era. However, there's tripleA everywhere
and it is highly lethal to your viritual aircraft. Some is manned, some is AI
directed. The manned guns are brutal if the gunner has decent skills.

For lethality, nothing exceeds the 5" dual mounts of the carrier task forces.
Much of this is manned and you absolutely MUST watch it or you will be dead in a
heart beat. Watching the flak is part of the necessary situational awareness
required to survive in a totally hostile enviroment.

The barrage ack is also dangerous, but at least the odds favor not getting hit.
But, the manned guns will track you, and you must be alert to where the shells
detonate. I prefer to chase the ack up and down, much like a Battleship skipper
would chase salvos. The idea is that the gunners will be constantly correcting
their point of aim, so you head relative to the last burst hoping that the
gunner's correction will be along the predicted flight path rather than along
the altered path. I find it works well most of the time. However, even a blind
pig finds the ear of corn once in a while.

The danger really heightens when you commit to your attack. You jink as much as
possible while trying to avoid such radical maneuvering that your bombs will
miss the target altogether. Obviously, the lower the release point the greater
the chance of scoring a hit. Smart guys release above 10,000 ft to avoid the
remarkable concentration of small caliber ack. The foolhardy fly right into the
teeth of the tripleA and most never emerge on the other side. Those that do are
piloting flying sieves with little chance of getting home.

So, with with my combat flying experience being limited to flying a PC, if you
will, I absolutely agree that you must watch the flak carefully, especially when
below 15,000 feet or you will pay the price.

One more thing about this type of sim. You fly with and against real people.
People, who in many cases have thousands of hours of ACM experience within the
environment of a simulation. Their ACM skills are extraordinary. ACM guru Robert
L. Shaw spoke at an Aces High convention, and was dumbstruck at the skill level
of many players. More than a few combat veteran fighter pilots have tried this
sim and came away horrified at the beating they took. Still others (one an F-15
driver) excel at the sim and are tough cookies to defeat in a straight-up duel.
We even have a WWII veteran Lancaster pilot, who loves to take up the big Lancs,
and even dabbles with fighters.

Just like in the real world, there are two types of fighter pilots, aces and
targets. About 5% of the pilots account for around half of the air to air kills,
with the other 95% comprising the vast majority of the victims. Indeed, the
average AH sim pilot is hardpressed to reach a 1:1 kill to death ratio, while
the better pilots can easily maintain 10 to 30 times that.

For the old fart fighter pilot wannabe (like me), former fighter jocks and even
current fighter drivers, this sim is great fun, it sharpens basic ACM and SA
skills and provides for something more entertaining than watching Discovery
Wings.

If nothing else, you will learn to appreciate the cast iron balls it took to
flying combat missions in WWII aircraft. Can you imagine landing a shot-up F4U-4
deadstick aboard an Essex class CV in the dark? It'll curl your toes.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

Subject: P-47/51 deflection shots into the belly of the German
tanks,reality
From: (Corey C. Jordan)

If nothing else, you will learn to appreciate the cast iron balls it took to
flying combat missions in WWII aircraft. Can you imagine landing a shot-up
F4U-4
deadstick aboard an Essex class CV in the dark? It'll curl your toes.

On the bomb run, where flak is usually heaviest. you fly straight and level
with bombay doors open. No turns No evasive action. You just do it. And getting
our toes curled was something we never worried about. And an 88 could do a
lot more to you than that You have never lived until you've see flak that is so
close you can see the red hot core in the midst of the black smoke,, feel the
shock of the explosion and hear the stuff raining. down on the skin of your
plane like rocks in a tin roof.When you see the black puffs the flak is
harmless because all the steel has already dropped away. I would love ot take
everyone on this NG for just one ride through a heavy flak field over Germany.
.. Just once. A second time would never be necessary
I's not the flak you see that hurts you, it is the flak you never see.that
kills you..
Go to my website and click on"FLAK".I took that shot in a heavy flakfield out
of the nose of Willie The Wolf. I think that one was over Koblenz.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Go to my website and click on"FLAK".I took that shot in a heavy flakfield out
of the nose of Willie The Wolf. I think that one was over Koblenz.

Art, are those photos taken by you personally? Regarding the
"One goes down" photo..I get a tear in my eye just seeing the
photo. I can't imagine what I would feel if I were personally
watching a planeload of my buds going down like that. Is it
horror, anger, sorrow,...? How the hell did you mentally deal
with watching something like that?

My heart goes out to you for having to go through such experiences.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Because there were torpedo nets ?

To get back to the main subject - they may have thought they were
'bouncing them up into the belly' but I'll bet the effectiveness was
due to a hail of AP beating in the cooling air grilles - look at the
back end and deck of any tank and that's what you see. And that's why
the Korean War vets in my squadron taught me to shoot tanks there.
Walt BJ

From: waltbj1@m

To get back to the main subject - they may have thought they were
'bouncing them up into the belly' but I'll bet the effectiveness was
due to a hail of AP beating in the cooling air grilles - look at the
back end and deck of any tank and that's what you see. And that's why
the Korean War vets in my squadron taught me to shoot tanks

In May, 1944, when the Herman Goering panzer division decided to attack south
through the Liri Valley in daylight, trusting to cloud cover to conceal its
movement, B-25 strafers coming in at very low level slaughtered it. They
dropped 500 pounders and fragmentation bombs, but it was mostly the tens of
thousands of rounds of .50 fired at almost point blank range from the rear that
seems to have done most of the damage. Burned out anks, troop carriers, gun
carriers, trucks and artillery pieces--as well as hundreds of dead
Germans--littered the road for miles; your Italian Highway of Death.
During the Korean war, Tactical Air Control Parties could, with confidence,
call in P-51s to stop armor by strafing.


Chris Mark

ost (Chris Mark) wrote:
waltbj wrote:

To get back to the main subject - they may have thought they were
'bouncing them up into the belly' but I'll bet the effectiveness was
due to a hail of AP beating in the cooling air grilles - look at the
back end and deck of any tank and that's what you see. And that's why
the Korean War vets in my squadron taught me to shoot tanks

In May, 1944, when the Herman Goering panzer division decided to attack south
through the Liri Valley in daylight, trusting to cloud cover to conceal its
movement, B-25 strafers coming in at very low level slaughtered it. They
dropped 500 pounders and fragmentation bombs, but it was mostly the tens of
thousands of rounds of .50 fired at almost point blank range from the rear that
seems to have done most of the damage. Burned out anks, troop carriers, gun
carriers, trucks and artillery pieces--as well as hundreds of dead
Germans--littered the road for miles; your Italian Highway of Death.
During the Korean war, Tactical Air Control Parties could, with confidence,
call in P-51s to stop armor by strafing.

What would be more effective for strafing -- An F-51 with it's six
50-calibers or an A-1 with its four 20 mm cannon?

-Mike (my money's on the A-1) Marron