Trying Lazy 8 Question Again

Let's forget anything I said about the Unusual Attitudes Course and Modified
Wing Overs, etc and just address doing a smooth Lazy 8 for my wife's
benefit.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder
control and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still
too fast with apex not yet reached.....I'm trying to describe the apex being
at maybe 135 degrees and too tight (ie: close) on the initial zero degree
line...

Where am I going wrong?

On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 18:52:31 GMT, "Dick" wrote:

Let's forget anything I said about the Unusual Attitudes Course and Modified
Wing Overs, etc and just address doing a smooth Lazy 8 for my wife's
benefit.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder
control and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still
too fast with apex not yet reached.....I'm trying to describe the apex being
at maybe 135 degrees and too tight (ie: close) on the initial zero degree
line...

Where am I going wrong?


Cut back on the throttle a bit -- the word "lazy" is intentional.
Then delay the roll into the bank just a bit, so that you are a bit nose
high and speed is starting to bleed off. If that doesn't give you the
proper attitude/speed at the 90-degree point, be a little less aggressive
with the roll input.
--
Jay.
(remove dashes for legal email address)

Thanks I will try it.

Cut back on the throttle a bit -- the word "lazy" is intentional.
Then delay the roll into the bank just a bit, so that you are a bit nose
high and speed is starting to bleed off. If that doesn't give you the
proper attitude/speed at the 90-degree point, be a little less aggressive
with the roll input.
--
Jay.
(remove dashes for legal email address)

Dick, from the AOPA site:

Lazy Eights
Five Easy Steps
Want an easy way to teach lazy eights? Some say there is no easy way,
but the way described here might prove a bit of a shortcut for you.
Try it and let me know how it works, and be sure to suggest anything
that could make the maneuver easier.
Start with Step One. It is the same Step One we used to teach
chandelles ("Chandelles in 60 Minutes," AOPA Flight Training, June
2001). Fly a 360-degree turn with a very shallow bank. Start with 10
degrees. Slowly increase the bank by 10 more degrees. Hold it a bit,
then reduce to 10 degrees again. Do it again. Increase to 30 degrees,
then back to 20 degrees, and then 10. Don't hurry the changes. The
purpose of this exercise is to improve coordination.

Strive for smooth control and altitude proficiency. These maneuvers
are getting you ready for the precision you will need for lazy eights.
At the same time you will see a noteworthy improvement in straight-and-
level flight and general control precision.

Now you're ready for Step Two. Fly a 180-degree turn. During the first
90 degrees, start a shallow bank, reaching no more than 30 degrees of
bank. During the second 90 degrees, slowly and smoothly reduce the
bank to level flight at the 180-degree point. During the first 90
degrees of this turn, slowly lift the nose to a shallow climb while
executing the bank, and during the second 90 degrees gradually lower
the nose to level flight just as the nose reaches the 180-degree
point.

You have executed one-half of a basic lazy eight, except that, after
practicing several times, you will then raise the nose so that the
speed drops to approximately five knots above flaps-up stall speed.
This is Step Three.

The nose will reach the highest point at the 45-degree point in the
turn, which is halfway through the first 90 degrees. Speed will
continue to decrease until passing down through the 90-degree point.
The bank at that point will be no more than 30 degrees, and speed will
be the slowest, approximately five knots above flaps-up stall speed.

As the nose passes down through the 90-degree point, speed will begin
to increase. Make an arc below the horizon equal to the arc made above
the horizon during the first half of this turn. As the nose starts to
pass down through the 90-degree point, speed will start to increase
and will continue to increase until reaching level flight with wings
level. This completes one side. It takes two of these to complete the
figure eight.

Practice each turn until you feel comfortable. Now for Step Four. To
complete the maneuver, fly through one side and then, without
stopping, continue the eight in the opposite direction.

You have completed the figure eight maneuver, and you are now ready
for Step Five. You will need a full understanding of the effect of
torque, and that is what Step Five is all about.

Point the airplane on a cardinal heading or line up with a road or
other straight line. This isn't necessary, but it is easier to see the
effect of torque. In straight-and-level flight, lift the nose straight
ahead about 20 degrees. Hold the heading while you lift the nose. Keep
the wings level. Notice that, as the speed slows down, the nose begins
to drift to the left. Torque is causing this. To hold the nose
straight, add enough right rudder to overcome torque and keep the nose
from drifting.

Now lower the nose to level flight. As the speed picks up, torque goes
away, and the airplane will fly level with no torque correction.

Next, from level flight with cruise power, lower the nose. As the
speed picks up, the nose will drift to the right. That is the result
of the airplane's built-in correction for torque. Now raise the nose
to level flight. As speed increases, torque correction is no longer
needed. When you have reached cruising speed, there will be no
directional change resulting from torque or torque correction.

Now that you understand what torque or torque correction does to the
airplane, let's apply this to the lazy eight.

Line the airplane up along a road. Turns should be made into the wind.
If you make turns downwind, you may be blown far off course. First
turn to the right. Start the up portion. As the nose rises and speed
slows, torque will slow, or even stop, the turn. That is when you
apply right rudder to overcome the effect of torque. Use enough right
rudder to make the turn continue at the correct rate. As the nose
passes down through the 90-degree point and continues on down, speed
will pick up. Make sure that the arc below the horizon equals the arc
above the horizon.

As the nose rises through wings level and the turn to the left is
started, you will need to consider torque again. During the turn to
the left, torque will tend to speed up the rate of turn. That is when
you apply right rudder pressure - yes, right rudder pressure - to hold
the turn from going too fast. In other words, for turns to the right,
use right rudder to make the airplane turn at the proper rate; for
turns to the left, use right rudder to keep the airplane from turning
too fast. Think this through. You cannot execute lazy eights without
correcting for torque.

Examiners complain that many applicants actually do wingovers when
they think they are doing lazy eights. A wingover is a good, easy
aerobatic maneuver, but it isn't a lazy eight.

In lazy eights you fly the airplane throughout. In wingovers, you slip
the airplane during the turnaround. For lazy eights, fly the airplane
throughout the turns - no slipping - and be sure to allow for torque.

Thanks a lot. Pretty concise and logical approach. I'll have to go to that
AOPA site first the next time I have a question.

Only surprise to me was The nose will reach the highest point at the
45-degree point in the turn, which is halfway through the first 90 degrees.

After completing jury duty, I'll go up and try it out. Thanks.

One thing that helped me was to ignore the altimeter and reference the
airspeed indicator to return to the starting altitude.

[posted and mailed]

"Dick" wrote in news:P3zfi.818$RZ1.511@trnddc05:

Let's forget anything I said about the Unusual Attitudes Course and
Modified Wing Overs, etc and just address doing a smooth Lazy 8 for my
wife's benefit.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30*
P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder
control and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the
entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and
still too fast with apex not yet reached.....I'm trying to describe
the apex being at maybe 135 degrees and too tight (ie: close) on the
initial zero degree line...

Where am I going wrong?

Here's what I do (and how I'd teach it):

Let's assume that the maneuver will be done to the right.

After the object is off the right wing and you are below Va, there are
four spots you need to pay attention to:

a) 45 degrees off the object
b) 90 degrees (i.e., when the object is in front of you)
c) 135 degrees
d) 180 degrees

At forty-five degrees you are at maximum pitch up and want to have ~15
degrees of bank. So, start the maneuver at, say, 5 degrees of bank;
pitch up so you gain altitude (I usually gain 2-300 feet in the
maneuver!)

Between the 45 and 90 degree point, you are increasing the bank to 30
degrees. So, by the time you are at the 90 degree point, you've hit the
30 degrees and now you will slice the nose through the horizon.

At the 135 degree point you are at maximum pitch down. At this point,
you want to have started decreasing the bank and make sure that you
don't go past the altitude you started at.

The objective is that at the 180 degree point, you have the object off
your left wing (+/- 10 degrees) and your altitude is no more than 100
feet off from where you started.

As was previously said, it's a smooth maneuver. All too often students
will bank right into 15 degrees instead of doing it gradually.

I'm not sure what type of plane you're flying to offer any more
suggestions.

Hope that helps.

Barry
CP-ASEL-IA, AGI, CFI-candidate, FAASTeam Lead Rep.

Thanks. I think initial overbank could be the problem.
"Barry C" wrote in message
31...
[posted and mailed]

"Dick" wrote in news:P3zfi.818$RZ1.511@trnddc05:

Let's forget anything I said about the Unusual Attitudes Course and
Modified Wing Overs, etc and just address doing a smooth Lazy 8 for my
wife's benefit.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30*
P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder
control and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the
entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and
still too fast with apex not yet reached.....I'm trying to describe
the apex being at maybe 135 degrees and too tight (ie: close) on the
initial zero degree line...

Where am I going wrong?

Here's what I do (and how I'd teach it):

Let's assume that the maneuver will be done to the right.

After the object is off the right wing and you are below Va, there are
four spots you need to pay attention to:

a) 45 degrees off the object
b) 90 degrees (i.e., when the object is in front of you)
c) 135 degrees
d) 180 degrees

At forty-five degrees you are at maximum pitch up and want to have ~15
degrees of bank. So, start the maneuver at, say, 5 degrees of bank;
pitch up so you gain altitude (I usually gain 2-300 feet in the
maneuver!)

Between the 45 and 90 degree point, you are increasing the bank to 30
degrees. So, by the time you are at the 90 degree point, you've hit the
30 degrees and now you will slice the nose through the horizon.

At the 135 degree point you are at maximum pitch down. At this point,
you want to have started decreasing the bank and make sure that you
don't go past the altitude you started at.

The objective is that at the 180 degree point, you have the object off
your left wing (+/- 10 degrees) and your altitude is no more than 100
feet off from where you started.

As was previously said, it's a smooth maneuver. All too often students
will bank right into 15 degrees instead of doing it gradually.

I'm not sure what type of plane you're flying to offer any more
suggestions.

Hope that helps.

Barry
CP-ASEL-IA, AGI, CFI-candidate, FAASTeam Lead Rep.

"Dick" wrote in message news:P3zfi.818$RZ1.511@trnddc05...
Let's forget anything I said about the Unusual Attitudes Course and Modified Wing Overs, etc and just address doing a
smooth Lazy 8 for my wife's benefit.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over
stall using proper rudder control and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then
at the 90* point and still too fast with apex not yet reached.....I'm trying to describe the apex being at maybe 135
degrees and too tight (ie: close) on the initial zero degree line...

Where am I going wrong?



No requirement to have airspeed 5-10 over stall speed...

Did you look at the video link I posted?

not enough computer savy to open it
"Blueskies" wrote in message
t...

"Dick" wrote in message
news:P3zfi.818$RZ1.511@trnddc05...
Let's forget anything I said about the Unusual Attitudes Course and
Modified Wing Overs, etc and just address doing a smooth Lazy 8 for my
wife's benefit.

My procedure for the Lazy 8: entry at 15/15* P&B, then up to 30/30* P&B
at 90* to entry and down to 5-10 mph over stall using proper rudder
control and centered ball.

Unfortunately after I look left over the wing to line up with the entry
point and initiate first pitch/bank, I'm then at the 90* point and still
too fast with apex not yet reached.....I'm trying to describe the apex
being at maybe 135 degrees and too tight (ie: close) on the initial zero
degree line...

Where am I going wrong?



No requirement to have airspeed 5-10 over stall speed...

Did you look at the video link I posted?