Calling Tom Cooper. . . Iran stuff. .

Hi Tom,
Just reading the Osprey Iranian Phantom ops book, and in it you make
reference to IIAF/IDF exchanges. Do you have any more info on this? It kind
of makes sense in terms of the 1970's and the fact the Iranians are
Persians rather than Arabs, but is still the first I've heard of it, and
I'd love to know more if there's more to know.
Great book BTW, I'm starting to develop a serious interest in Iranian
aviation these days!

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

"Drewe Manton" escribió en el mensaje
. 4...
Hi Tom,
Just reading the Osprey Iranian Phantom ops book, and in it you make
reference to IIAF/IDF exchanges. Do you have any more info on this? It
kind
of makes sense in terms of the 1970's and the fact the Iranians are
Persians rather than Arabs, but is still the first I've heard of it, and
I'd love to know more if there's more to know.
Great book BTW, I'm starting to develop a serious interest in Iranian
aviation these days!

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

You never heard of Irangate? And you never heard of Col. Oliver "I dunno"
North?

"pepito grillo" wrote in news:1cR%a.38533
:

You never heard of Irangate? And you never heard of Col. Oliver "I dunno"
North?


Errr. . yes. Now pray tell, what the hell does any of that have to do with
my question regarding IIAF/IDF pilot exchanges? I await etc. . .

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

"Drewe Manton" escribió en el mensaje
. 4...
"pepito grillo" wrote in news:1cR%a.38533
:

You never heard of Irangate? And you never heard of Col. Oliver "I
dunno"
North?


Errr. . yes. Now pray tell, what the hell does any of that have to do with
my question regarding IIAF/IDF pilot exchanges? I await etc. . .

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

Israel and Persia had a long and established relationship until the fall of
the Sha. And even after when the Iran released thousands of military of the
ancient regime from the jails, that relationship was resumed in more secret
terms.

http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide...israel130.html

"pepito grillo" wrote in
:

Israel and Persia had a long and established relationship until the
fall of the Sha. And even after when the Iran released thousands of
military of the ancient regime from the jails, that relationship was
resumed in more secret terms.

http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide...israel130.html



Thanks for that, and thanks for the link, I just wish you'd provided the
info upfront rather than via the convoluted route of Ollie North/Irangate
etc. My primary interest is in the nuts and bolts surrounding such
exchanges, not the political minutae surrounding it and following it's
end other than in general terms directly related. I'll freely admit my
ignorance in that I'd presumed there was no real reason for there not to
cordial relations between Israel and Iran given the history and the fact
that Iran is not an Arab state, but am not knowledgable on the depth and
history of any relationship.

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

"pepito grillo" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...

"Drewe Manton" escribió en el mensaje
. 4...
"pepito grillo" wrote in news:1cR%a.38533
:

You never heard of Irangate? And you never heard of Col. Oliver "I
dunno"
North?


Errr. . yes. Now pray tell, what the hell does any of that have to do
with
my question regarding IIAF/IDF pilot exchanges? I await etc. . .

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

Israel and Persia had a long and established relationship until the fall
of
the Sha. And even after when the Iran released thousands of military of
the
ancient regime from the jails, that relationship was resumed in more
secret
terms.

http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide...israel130.html


Hm, well, yes, but even what little can be found on that website is not
revealing the full extension of the Israeli-Iranian cooperation. Neither
that before 1979, nor AFTER.

As a matter of fact, during the 1970s, the Iranians were not only
co-financing such projects like Jericho IRBM, or what later became known as
Lavi fighter, or the Sa'ar/Reshef FAC(M)s (all of which were ordered, but
never delivered to Iran), but they were actually involved in the R+D for
these projects, and there were firm plans to organize production of them in
Iran at some time in the 1980s.

The website linked above mentions - very shortly - that there was very tight
cooperation between the intel services of both countries in the 1970s: it
does not mention, however, that this cooperation was continued (to almost
unbelieveable extensions and intensity) after the Islamic Revloution in Iran
too. This went so far that the success (or a failure) of operations - just
for example - against the Iraqi nuclear ambitions was both: an equally
shared Israeli and Iranian success (or failure). The Operation "Opera" is
one example of an Israeli enterprise which would be impossible without
extensive and direct Iranian participation and support.

Just recently I learned about even far more "wild" things being done - or
intended - by both sides (Iran and Israel) in favour to each other,
especially in the early 1980s, but I think discussing such matters here
would result in a very "inmature" discussion, so I'll let it be - at least
for the time being.

Back to the topic of Israeli training for Iranian pilots: the "Irangate" is
really a "no-go" affair in this case. Except MIM-23 HAWK SAMs the Israelis
haven't delivered anything else during the operations in connection with
"Irangate". Actually, considering its volume (in items delivered),
"Irangate" was trully a kindergarden compared to some other similar
enterprises: its importance lies rather in the fact that its revelation
brought an end to official - but clandestine - US support for Iran, while I
guess that President Reagan was rather relieved that ONLY these deliveries
became known to such extension...

One of far huger operations, for example, was one organized in 1985, which
saw also ten Iranian pilots being sent to Israel to train on A-4 Skyhawks
(and it is meanwhile known that the pilots in question not only learned to
fly the Skyhawks within only few days, but were also delighted about it):
that operation - which was then intercepted and stopped by US authorities -
planned to deliver dozens of US-built aircraft, engines, spares etc. - worth
$2 billion (at the time) via Israel to Iran. All the serious and
well-informed observers about this war are sure that, had Iran got that
shipment, it would probably crush the Iraqi resistance during the
Valfajr-offensives in late winter/early spring 1986.



Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php
Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585

Drewe Manton wrote in message .4...
Hi Tom,
Just reading the Osprey Iranian Phantom ops book, and in it you make
reference to IIAF/IDF exchanges. Do you have any more info on this? It kind
of makes sense in terms of the 1970's and the fact the Iranians are
Persians rather than Arabs, but is still the first I've heard of it, and
I'd love to know more if there's more to know.
Great book BTW, I'm starting to develop a serious interest in Iranian
aviation these days!

Glad to hear you like the book so much, Drewe.

Re. IIAF-IDF/AF exchanges: the research is still going on, so I don't
have many details yet. But, what can be said for the time being is
that they have some helluva interesting stories to tell about the mock
dogfights they have had during their exchange tours - not only with
IDF/AF, but also with USAF, USN, Luftwaffe, RAF etc., especially
because they participated in numerous exercises and on different
sides, flying not only F-4sC/D/Es, Mirage IIICJs, A-4s, or F-14As, but
also F-15A/Bs, F-5s, T-38s, and F-106As. Two even did tours with the
"Red Hats" squadron, and flew (US) MiGs....

Tom Cooper
Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq; War in the Air, 1980-1988
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/t...hp/title=S6585