NTSB: Crossfield Not Warned Of Adverse Weather

Avweb's story, which has a link to NTSB's factual report, notes that Scott
Crossfield was not warned of adverse weather. However, he did have
access to XM Satellite Radio with a subscription to its basic weather
package. The autopsy likewise isn't suggestive of any obvious causative
medical issue (unless I'm misreading it):

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...958 21-1.html

Using XM radio to avoid Tstorms can be pretty hazardous unless you
allow a very wide margin of error.

1. Time delay up to 15-20 minutes
2. Max Precip isn't strongly correlated with max turbulence
3. Lightning shows cloud to ground only, not cloud to cloud.

"Paul kgyy" wrote:

Using XM radio to avoid Tstorms can be pretty hazardous unless you
allow a very wide margin of error.

It is odd that he was taking so much advice from ATC. XM Wx should easily
keep you clear of level 5-6 stuff, and is much better than depending on
controllers to avoid big CBs.

If Crossfield's XM Wx was working, he was either ignoring it or pushing way
too hard.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Paul kgyy" wrote:

Using XM radio to avoid Tstorms can be pretty hazardous unless you
allow a very wide margin of error.

It is odd that he was taking so much advice from ATC. XM Wx should easily
keep you clear of level 5-6 stuff, and is much better than depending on
controllers to avoid big CBs.

Last I checked many controllers only have transponder indications with no
weather on their display at all. Even if they can paint the weather, they
have no obligation to help you with weather if they are under heavy
workload.

Danny Deger
Lots of good flying stories on my web site,
www.dannydeger.net

"Danny Deger" wrote:

Last I checked many controllers only have transponder indications with no
weather on their display at all.

How many? Where did you check?

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Danny Deger" wrote:

Last I checked many controllers only have transponder indications with no
weather on their display at all.

How many? Where did you check?

I don't think any of the "Centers" have skin paint. Having said this, I
don't know if Crossfield was talking to approach, Center, or tower. As far
as I know most, if not all, approach control radars can paint rain. But if
they are busy, they are not obliged to help pilots out with weather. I am
sure there are towers out there that have no radar at all. I personally
NEVER rely on a controller for weather information. If I get some
information that is great, but you can not rely on it.

Danny Deger

Danny Deger wrote:

Last I checked many controllers only have transponder indications with
no weather on their display at all.

Maybe you're thinking of a Class D contract tower?

Two years ago, I took a GREAT two-hour+ private tour of BDL TRACON and
tower. I spent an hour downstairs sitting with an approach controller,
and another in the tower cab, rotating among the jobs up there. The
tour took place on an IFR w/ thunderstorms and low-level wind shear
evening, from ~ 1800-2030 local.

The TRACON folks had a complete set of keys at each position that could
display, or not display, all kinds of different weather information,
overlaying on the individual controller's screen. They were also
actively soliciting PIREPS from nearly every approach and several
departures.

During a post tour debriefing with the duty-supervisor, were were led to
believe that the equipment we saw was FAA standard issue nationwide.

Since the radar paints were all computer generated, the BDL folks could
flip a few switches and actually work Boston or NY Metro approach /
departure traffic. In a training room, it was demonstrated how the
center of the screen could be moved to the center of whatever they
wanted to define as a "sector". They even moved the center to JFK,
zoomed it in, and we watched approaches to all the NY area airports,
with and without weather.

One thing I took away from the tour was the weather assistance available
for the asking. I was glad that the tour wasn't on a severe clear night!

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 10:15:17 -0500, "Danny Deger"
wrote:


"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Paul kgyy" wrote:

Using XM radio to avoid Tstorms can be pretty hazardous unless you
allow a very wide margin of error.

It is odd that he was taking so much advice from ATC. XM Wx should easily
keep you clear of level 5-6 stuff, and is much better than depending on
controllers to avoid big CBs.

Last I checked many controllers only have transponder indications with no
weather on their display at all. Even if they can paint the weather, they
have no obligation to help you with weather if they are under heavy
workload.

When sitting up around 10 to 12,000 I've had approach from several
airports ask me what I was seeing and then relayed it to aircraft in
those areas. Two I remember are Toledo and Kalamazoo. I also had
At Kazoo (at 8000 IIRC) the front and line of thunderstorms was within
a couple of miles of the airport. For Toledo the aircraft reporting
the rough ride, and lightning were in storms quite a ways north and
not showing on Toledo's RADAR.
Minneapolis Center asked about visibility over the UP of Michigan and
over Lake Michigan on a night flight with thunderstorms coming out
over Lake Michigan from the West. OTOH they may have just breaking up
the monotony of making sure I was still awake as the storms were quite
a ways from me, (but they were visible and moving way slower than
forecast).



Danny Deger
Lots of good flying stories on my web site,
www.dannydeger.net

On 8/2/2007 8:48:11 PM, Paul kgyy wrote:

3. Lightning shows cloud to ground only, not cloud to cloud.

Interesting. I use WSI's downlinked weather service, but wondered if XM was
better due to their lightning strike date. Is this limitation
(cloud-to-cloud) documented on their site, or in other words, how did you
learn of this? I am curious from a WSI comparison point of view.

--
Peter

On Aug 3, 8:05 am, "Peter R." wrote:
On 8/2/2007 8:48:11 PM, Paul kgyy wrote:

3. Lightning shows cloud to ground only, not cloud to cloud.

Interesting. I use WSI's downlinked weather service, but wondered if XM was
better due to their lightning strike date. Is this limitation
(cloud-to-cloud) documented on their site, or in other words, how did you
learn of this? I am curious from a WSI comparison point of view.

--
Peter

Not sure where I saw it - maybe AOPA magazine or Plane & Pilot.